oh excuse me there class that's me
I'd like to start the meeting and we're
going to be doing two things tonight
we're going to be reviewing the de
Graaff design manual test run we're
going to have that which is really
interesting and then we'll be looking at
graph design manual the Issaquah images
and seeing how we relate to the some of
the buildings around town what I'd like
to do is have the draft design manual
test run first and then we'll have
public comment and then we'll do the
this quite images and then we'll do
public comment after that so if you do
wish to make public comment I know you
love to sign in so we'll pour to that so
let's begin good evening so since we
didn't send you a packet I just put that
up there and we will due to public
comments so let's see here
okay so as I mentioned to some of you
Keith had a great idea which was to
delegate an assignment and so we asked
because we had seen Crandall Randall ax
go through an evaluation of two
buildings that of applicants who are
currently in the works and they put
together a PowerPoint and kind of walked
us and the applicant through their
thinking and we said would you do that
again for this because we thought it
would be a good test for all of us
to see how this worked so I talked to
them today they ran me through their
PowerPoint I will be reading my notes
and hopefully we'll have a successful
conversation so there their overarching
comments were not too bad not an F so
they did bail everybody track and
remembering that right so the first
thing they did was look at you the
checklist and I think you can maybe see
I know it's a little harder on the big
monitor but there are red checks in this
column and this column and what they
have done is really they focus just on
the red check they aren't running
through all the ways that they think it
complies and they started with
architecture now this is not in the
urban core so it is not a you know
northwest contemporary is not applicable
or available but their point in in
evaluating that was as you can see down
here at the bottom was to show that even
if it was Northwest contemporary it
still would have had red checks their
suggestion was that it was either
designed under arts and crafts or
craftsman listen how do you learn
through one second do you have a quick
picture you could pull up a veil I shows
up in here
okay they will have images and circle
pieces or super so you will you will
absolutely see it you don't have to do
it all for memories okay
thank you for saying asking that another
question no see remind me worst Vail
apartment said by a pilot okay let me do
this it's at seventh and Locust right
behind the safe way behind safe way oh
okay okay yeah okay I know but you know
what I can do so in case you're ever
interested you may not have seen what I
just did but if you go to the home page
and you click on new development on the
on the Left this map of active projects
pops up cement of a fish
and so this anything that's outlined in
yellow is new and then anything that is
think this yeah so then if you click on
it you get all this information about
the project so there's a quick little so
that's a location and you also get kind
of a quick image although we'll get more
images as we go through it that help
refresh your project thank you
okay so both architectural and from an
urban design perspective they identified
things that concerned them and in ways
in which they thought it did not comply
so the first using they didn't think
that arts and crafts and craftsmen would
be significantly different in their
evaluations so they just picked arts and
crafts and carried that one through to
show the evaluation so from a massing
you may remember its massing scale
materials and colors so they're going to
they've run through those four
categories so relative to massing
obviously veil has a flat roof Arts and
Crafts doesn't have a flat roof so it
would have to pick some kind of pitched
roof flat or steep depending on the
style that they had selected there were
no upper-level balcony which they
thought would have benefitted the
elevation and composition is symmetrical
which they also thought would have
helped its appearance so here are images
showing some of the things first is flat
roof the symmetrical composition arts
and crafts is typically asymmetrical and
they thought that would have made this a
more interesting composition in terms of
materials they said there were too many
different materials they said typically
you don't want more than three that some
of the materials that were selected were
inappropriate for an arts and crafts
building the metal and cement chest
panels were not appropriate materials
for arts and crafts and one of the
things about arts and crafts is that it
would have sort of a heavier weight e'er
masonry base which would
not the design of this particular
project so again they are looking at the
different panels and identifying the
cement panels in the body and the accent
panels that that that was not the right
materials and also they found that the
hardy panel and in particular the metal
panel the hardy panel is of the cement
panel both of them are very flat so you
don't get any shading shadow and that's
a lot of the materials and detailing of
an arts and crafts building relies on
some different planes in trim and
different materials to create those
slight shifts which give you shade and
shadow lines which make for a more
detailed and interesting elevation
so these were just identifying where
different materials were used so they
had a lot to say about the windows the
windows are horizontal bands on this
building whereas arts and crafts would
be much more separate kind of vertical
windows there was a lack of detail in
terms of trim and lentils and other
things like that the windows were
probably either fixed or casement which
means they swing out like this not
double hung which is what you would
expect with arts and crafts and the
vinyl windows they didn't think we're
appropriate and we talked about that for
a while because I think we're still
trying to understand when they say
natural materials do they mean literally
natural materials or materials that look
natural so I think we're going to have
some more conversation about that
because we'd like to understand if
they're using a hardiplank material
that's installed to create that change a
dough and it appears to be
board-and-batten or wood grain or
something is that acceptable so we don't
know that yet but they have commented
that vinyl windows they that it's not a
hard and fast rule but that a lot of
vinyl windows are not very durable and
permanent and they thought it was really
important that things be designed to be
long-lasting and to have quality and
that was a concern when they saw a vinyl
windows
so they were identifying where the
windows were called out and and here you
can also get a sense of sort of the
on horizontality horizontal bands
of windows and doors you know they went
through four different materials that
they were focused on walls doors windows
and roof and they identified that there
was nothing that the middle was silent
that you could that there were certain
implications about doors in in the
design of them they were likely to be
certain materials but that it was never
specifically called out
color palette they thought there were
again too many colors and that the
colors that were selected were not
appropriate and and this was interesting
to me because one of the colors so the
white I kind of understood it's a
creamier white would have been
appropriate as on earth tone but the
blue was not appropriate because it was
not an earth tone found in Issaquah and
so I thought that was an interesting
comment that I wouldn't have anticipated
because it's a fairly soft blue
then on to urban design a big part of
the urban design guidelines is around
natural areas as you may remember that
that certain gestures are made to
natural areas between the Locust Street
edge which is not really a street at
that point is a stream it's a small
little creek and so that would trigger
if you're within 150 feet of that of a
natural area that would trigger certain
kinds of actions and so that's a lot of
what they're focused on there's no
landscape transitions to the creeks the
building materials aren't as natural as
they should be towards a creek and that
the massing and common areas don't take
advantage of the creeks that the front
entrance doesn't orient towards that and
that the upper levels don't step back so
I think there's several pieces so here's
the site plan the creek is right here
it's a class-4 so it has a very small
buffer and there is this kind of access
way it's not for use by bail except for
emergency vehicles but ages behind it
does use it and so their recommendation
was that this common air and there may
be another so their recommendation was
that this common area should have been
located down here towards the corner so
that it sort of had a better
relationship to that the upper floors
didn't step back as the guidelines would
have suggested and the front so this is
their lobby I asked about this because I
was a little surprised when they said no
front doors
the front doors based onto the street
they would have suggested that they face
the
Natural Area compatibility with the area
I think this is going to be an
interesting one for us to discuss
because other than Atlas this is well
this is the second building in the area
and they thought that it could have been
more sympathetic to its context so for
instance with the ages senior residences
behind they thought that it could have
done a better job of picking up some of
the clues from that building which again
arts and crafts would have probably
helped do some of that not using more
natural materials facing to the wetland
it felt somewhat divorced from all these
things that are happening around it so
edges they admitted this the next couple
of ones are picky so I'll just start off
with that the first one was that they
they they use the word insufficient here
I think when as we talked about it more
what they said was that it was unclear
what the separation was that they had
provided these appropriate outdoor
spaces for the units that are right next
to the trail but that it was unclear
what the kind of vegetation would be was
it evergreen should it maybe be
evergreen and a wall to give a little
greater sense or clear sense of
separation from the trail especially
since there are you know fairly large
windows that face from the living space
into this area it would be appropriate
to have a little clear demarcation of
public and
public areas then usable open space they
felt like this had not been well
designed that it felt a little bit like
a leftover space and had not been
thought out as clearly as it should be
the bike racks and some of the street
furniture that you would expect weren't
shown at least not yet it was not clear
what the program was for the space they
thought that if the residential units
that face onto the trail were live work
as opposed to residential lofts that
this might have been an opportunity for
some cafes or small businesses that
could have taken advantage of the space
they also and this was something I think
because they were looking at the
original set of plans and not on the
briefing response memo we had all
commented on these blank walls that we
thought that they did not do a very good
you know that it was unnecessary if
there's residential units why not have
windows or doors or something and they
so they had identified that as well
they thought there should either be
doors or windows something that was more
active relating to that space to really
be able to take advantage of its
presence and that was it
thoughts
I thought that was terrific I thought it
was really helpful I thought it it
really focused in I think some of the
areas that they pointed out we struggled
with when they were when they were
talking about the design in general and
you just what came up in my my going
around looking at buildings again some
of those some of those same kind of
comments with Vale or would be the
comments that I'd make on some of our
existing building so I thought that was
really really good for me
I don't know how everybody else is
feeling one quick question is the
step-back above if I remember they had
said should step back after four or five
floors they're saying the fifth floor
should step back is that them saying
that I think the requirement should be
four well that's a good question
mal I had well actually when I'm
counting here is five yeah and so I
think that they're saying in I think
it's EPS
maybe back from the street at four and
then or at five and then also if you had
that kind of natural area you would
additionally have that step back on on
the natural area side okay yeah because
I think I remember that that they had
that question work about they said after
four or five floors right and and I
agree we need to get one of the other
right yeah yeah this this step back was
more from the Natural Area just from the
street well and and it is a good point
that I don't well I don't remember well
that's it so here's a good question you
know when you if you haven't so an arts
and crafts building I'm doing this from
memory let's actually let's do this I
had it pulled up
so arts and crafts is a maximum of four
stories so this is a five story building
so they they changed ax I'm looking at
arts and crafts appropriate two to five
stories so um maybe they've revised it
since though so the if you I'm looking
at this chart that was right at the very
last page which I had done kind of going
through the original drafts so some of
it may have changed when you guys got
your final draft so I'm going to leave a
little bit of ignorance there but partly
if you look in this kind of upper box
you can see that to some extent it's
based on use so that a commercial
building might be two to three stories
where a residential or office building
could be four stories so that's an
interesting point that you know are they
recommending removing a story from Vale
because it's a five story building or
are we doing some other kind of
treatment because it is an interesting
question how you with a pitched roof
building how you do a step back so
that's a good question I mean this
actually raises and then we talked about
it two meetings back on the challenge
that if the number of stories is limited
for this the Arts and Crafts style but
the zoning allows for a taller building
and remember we're forcing them into the
box of northwest Lodge as a that's only
box you could go into if you're outside
of the rink or so my task on Friday is
to summarize all this and those are some
of the questions that we're going to
want to follow up with them to
understand whether there are going to be
a certain style whether you know how
we're going to resolve that because I
don't think we're asking for everything
to be Northwest
so that's that's a follow-up question so
other comments or questions question we
see when we say setback when we reach
third four or fourth four we mean just a
front or including the side which they
have circled in well streets we need to
have them set back then and also if
that's the case about the back side they
need to set back also it's taking a lot
of square footage out of a building we
do that so I you know we were looking at
we were also working with them on
vertical mixed used and I think that
they were showing it on three sides of
the example we were seeing on the other
hand there were streets on three sides
so I'm not sure whether it's the street
that's generating that or the
expectation that it is on all three or
four sides so that's a good follow-up
question I know that in this case what
they're circling is not is because there
is a set of step back or setback from
because of the natural area being on
that side so that's a clarification of
you know is it just a street or is it
all sides that set them and then another
question would be and I would agree with
what they have comments there that
there's no frontage hunting doors and
when we reviewed it I seem to recall
that the front is kind of like in the
middle next to the setback and it's not
very distinct it just kind of a little
small door and you walk into and there's
a little vest of you well so this
actually this isn't exactly the ground
plane it's kind of a mixture but so
you're right ray there is an entry right
here but that's they consider that a
secondary entry Oh the primary entry is
at the corner with a lobby and
sort of some public rooms and other
things and then all of these units that
face the street have individual entries
as well so there there are a lot of
doors along the street but the main
building door for the upper floors is at
the 7th and Locust corner yeah and if
that's the case and maybe that area
there's there should be some kind of a
setback and I would agree maybe the
corner and the that would be on the east
side and then on the north side of the
building I you know I think that the
setback should be in that corner
somewhere north side and then to the
east side of the business there that's
the main entryway
but to require them to have said back
all around the building seems kind of
sesang well I think step back I mean
hahaha
we'll get it sorted out to step back
while you're right it does does reduce
the size of the upper floor and I know
Mel had identified that could you have
more than one and why were they
recommending against a wedding cake but
I think that at least the first setback
or the only step back is with the intent
of having a building that sort of
perceived to be four storeys in height
so that would be the maximum sort of
height of the building as perceived from
the street he does add a question so
it's more about process and final
outcome we say that this didn't fail
is that correct that what we said so he
said I you may say we I'm quoting
Crandall Aram villa
okay I'm not saying I disagree with them
I just I'm relying on their
perspective I think that that they are
identifying some key things that would
need to be fixed to comply with the
design manual and that so their
overarching comment was not too bad not
an F okay um so you can draw you're
given to your own grade based on this
evaluation and I think that's my
question in terms of process is there a
hard and fast line is there a tipping
point is it really the discretion of the
Commission at the point where we all
agree it's a horrible building and it
doesn't meet most of the criteria but we
all sit here and send it through anyways
I mean is that a possibility or or do
you send it away with strong
recommendations or do you just say no
rework it so what I would say Keith may
say something different what I would say
is if if it had this many things we
probably wouldn't be sending it forward
if we could help it right I mean we
would want to tone it down condition
true right without condition well some
of this I wouldn't be like if the
architectural style is wrong I wouldn't
want to be bringing it forward I mean I
think we would have had a lot of
conversations to say you pick the wrong
architectural style you need to repair
that but I think that sending a building
forward to you unless the applicant is
insisting with the wrong architectural
style is not a good use of everyone's
time I mean you know typically what we
do is we want to work with an applicant
to get them as close as possible so that
hopefully we're recommending approval
with conditions we don't want to make
them redesign the whole thing when the
site development permit comes in but we
certainly would if they're being
reticent and so I guess what I'm saying
is typically we're trying to get it
closed and then have you guys evaluating
whether
we've gotten it all or there are some
additional things and and so that it's
not a question so much of deny you know
what are we going to do with this mess
okay doesn't that help yeah that helps
is more about process and I was asking
you one anymore is there a rigorous
process the checklist seems to be very
rigorous and and is there this
underlying rigorous process too and
that's really what I was looking for and
it seems like the process is similar to
how we have been operating you evaluate
it you send it forward when you feel
it's ready to go
and hopefully we approve it as well we
may approve it with strong
recommendations but it goes through okay
so don't think there's a like a metric
in if you get three read checks or five
read checks it automatically gets denied
right so there is some level of
discretion of both staff and the
Commission at the end of the day to say
you know what we understand why maybe
they don't comply with those or maybe
with conditions they get you know
they're in the ballpark or maybe you
just say send it back I mean so that
that's your choice at the end of the day
is decision makers I think hopefully as
Lucy said we've at least corralled them
in the yard so that the number of things
that you're actually working through
with them is similar to what you've done
you know prior to this tool this is not
the only tool in the toolbox remember
this is we're just adding a new tool and
part of this is you know besides seeing
if any of this doesn't feel like it
feels good and I think you guys have
identified at least a few things that
still feel a little bit maybe loose but
it's to say you know does this cause you
to think about this project differently
than without it and it did for me I mean
some of the things you know as you go
through the checklist and say oh yeah
you know what about that it's like well
yeah they probably could have done
something on the north edge that
actually reflected the stream being
adjacent to them and right now I don't
think it's the architecture doesn't show
that they necessarily did so if that's
part of our values then we should say
okay that's great now we have a
remembrance
do that the other thing I would add just
real quickly is that generally is staff
no matter whether we're working with a
development agreement or central is claw
or the IMC you know we're trying to get
them as close as possible bring it
forward and have a discussion with you
you guys are good about identifying
further things you see helping to craft
conditions asking the hard questions but
sometimes we're also just have gotten to
that as far as we feel we can and we are
bringing it forward with a few things we
don't want to bring it with a whole
basket full of things set of problems
but sometimes there are one or two
points where we just don't agree and
we've said fine let's go have a
conversation with the Commission and the
public and get them to weigh in on this
and we'll each lay out our case and you
know you guys are the decision-makers
that's why we pay you the big bucks you
get to make the decision if it was check
complies not complies would you have to
have a condition then yes okay what you
couldn't allow something that did not
comply to go through I think we
condition I think we'd probably leave it
up to the applicant to as part of their
presentation a commission to describe to
you guys why they believe they don't
need to comply with that particular
standard so if if they don't agree and
they make their case that they don't
agree and we still continue to believe
that it's non-compliant then what I
think it depends on the measure at the
magnitude of what it is so I'll give you
I'll pick two examples from from this
they've shown vinyl windows and we don't
think they're good vinyl windows to me
that is not a denial kind of thing you
can condition you may not use vinyl
windows or you have to use would be
twenty-year vinyl windows or wood cased
windows that to me does not so
profoundly it made for the applicants
they may say that's a cost we can't bear
we're not going to proceed or
going to appeal this but to me changing
out windows from one material to another
material is not something that
profoundly alters but if you said I
think staff missed that this community
space needs to be at the corner not in
the middle that would be something that
I would say should be remanded back to
be reworked and re shown because it
changes the whole configuration of the
site can you still get the parking in
how does that deal with access how's
that site designed now we might do that
between the first and the second meeting
you know we might go away for two months
and they rework that and come back and
then you could evaluate it and say we
think that succeeds or we need a few
more conditions but you're heading in
the right direction
does that help give you an example of a
I think a one that is is probably more
likely so they bring the application in
and let's assume in this location they
pick urban Grange all right so we go
through the checklist and we go wow it's
totally out of context you know there's
it doesn't have the right proportions
whatever the case is we say you know
what it really you really need to pick
arts and crafts and there's they love
their building they say no no we're
going to do orbit great that may come
forward as one of those kind of kind of
just apple and orange conversations for
you guys and ultimately you guys may say
I can't support urban Grange in this
location and and we're not going to
design your building for you you got to
go back and redesign and bring it back
that's one where I could see I could see
that could happen because you know
people end up they design something they
love it right and then you know here we
are saying you have to pick a different
architectural style and they may say you
know forget that let's go have that
conversation a commission alright so I
think that one could be a real one that
that happens so that would be so if they
give urban Grange and they met all the
requirements for urban Grange would that
then be the compatibility that you
didn't
think it was compatible with the
neighborhood that would be a tough
compatibility thing stick an urban
Grange building on 7th at Locust I mean
in my opinion and that would be the
thing we would put our Hannibal with
Atlas tonight or the ages you know that
let it be no good that would be an
interesting conversation to have all
right so just not having been here been
out of town last week this this the
presentation that you just made Lucy is
a theoretical with and the Vale
applicant was was a participant in this
they they were not oh okay I thought
this way were so um I understand okay I
I was going to ask you how they've
reacted well I didn't I actually Mike
Martin is now working for a Vale and so
I saw him and I said you know do you
want to be a part of this and he said
maybe and we talked about and we thought
probably better not to do that
just because this is a hypothetical
conversation not a not a you have to go
back and redesign your building it's
more of a post-mortem on bail you know
and and what would we have done
differently if we had this tool when we
did this review right and these
guidelines were in place would I bail
was right because the yeah the project
has approved met the code Bailey they
have a permit they could write City it
Dupree life and don't get to take it
back it's kind of just a couple
questions or observations so one is the
process we're back to the process
question and one of the challenges that
we've had is kind of level of
information that we get when they come
in an application and so I think the rig
the additional rigor that this generates
I think will provide hopefully better
quality more consistent level of detail
and documentation that we get for review
because we've had from you know fairly
sketchy stuff to fairly detailed
drawings and got to kind of find that
sweet spot so we're not twisting arms
constantly to make changes we've
invested a ton of money and construction
of drawings and we're saying they got
everything
- thing having enough to be able to
respond to the new kind of design
standards and I think this this will
help on that front a lot I think the the
other question is always about the
timing of their engagement with the
Commission and I understand what you're
just talking about there will be
instances where they're going to say
well we're done with - every we'll talk
to the Commission because we think we
can show them how grand our building is
it fit maybe you will succeed maybe not
but but I think the standard should be
there is kind of this level of
engagement that happens at the staff
level design development before it's
kicked into the commission so that it's
been the first kind of level of rigor
has as you know happened so and so I
think we need to think about that maybe
that's just staff discretion when you
choose to advance them I think that's
important for us so that we can do a
good job of applying the new standards
because we don't have a detail recommend
do this very well and then the other
thing about the checklist I think that
even though it's a relatively high check
a checklist as far as the elements that
we're looking at it makes us do a kind
of a systematic review of the project
and I think that for me anyway that will
help me a lot in trying to really look
at the various elements and then applied
really what's been described in the
design guidelines here are standards of
what those features should look like or
be like the downside and I mentioned
this in two meetings ago don't want to
get and come a little worried about
getting put into a tight box though on
some of these where there may be some
interesting design features that they
want to put in a building but doesn't
match up with the standard very well but
really the project is a nice project and
so I I worry about how that will play
maybe I'll just come from experience but
if we force them into a box sometimes we
may not may not get the best project out
of that either so it's kind of a give
and take on that for me well so I would
add a couple of thoughts because you
know it's the same things that we risk
wrestle with you know traditionally DC
had a very very very complete set of
plans before you approved it
and while that is kind of nice for DC in
the public it's pretty burdensome for
applicants to go to that level without
having confidence and so what we're and
and and this is still you know a
conversation I think that's why I'm
having this is at why I'm saying this is
because we're trying to strike a balance
between having enough information to
understand what they're proposing while
also getting them what they they would
say their project is entitled once they
have this land use permit to move
forward into construction so we want to
have them we want to understand it well
enough that we feel confident that we
know what they're doing but have not you
know driven them so far down the line
that they've invested a huge amount of
money without any certainty so I I think
that is an important feedback loop
between the Commission and staff to
understand are you getting the right
kinds of information I agree with you
Mike that some of these things around
materials and colors are going to drive
some of you know a higher level of
information that I think will be useful
to have a better sense of how the
building is actually going to look in
terms of the checklist this is another
good conversation so the way you know
different staff members have used the
central is clause standards checklist
differently my goal with it has been to
have it at a sort of moderate level but
that by using the checklist we can cover
a lot of those compliance things in
there and not spend the staff report
going through and saying this is how it
complies this is how it complies this is
how it complies but it is important to
indicate in what way we perceive
compliance because what you're doing
then is setting a bar as you move
forward that if as they refining and
developing their construction drawings
you have set the bar of how you review
this why you recommended approval so
that if they decide to make what seems
like a minor change to them and a
significant change to us we are able to
say seeing here's the checklist this is
the way we review that this was the
basis for our recommendation no you
can't take out half the windows or you
know what whatever that is so it's I'm
not sure the Commission really use that
checklist a lot but it was something
that was helpful to staff because we
could identify where there wasn't
compliance or where you didn't meet the
standard and then focus on a general
description of the project for each
chapter and then the basis for
conditions because that's sort of the
big proof in putting the thing that I've
liked about this process with the
consultant from the beginning is that it
seemed to me to be a logical next step
for this whole process where we've now
had examples of the first few buildings
and we recognized the need for some more
for some adjustments and I at this point
in the game I almost believe that the
non-compliance if this goes through in
the way it is right now this process
with the identification of specific
types of architecture that are expected
or an applicant in an application in
this part of the city it seems to me
that all I recall one of the things in
the very first meeting that we had is
the clarity that that gives to an
applicant that that they didn't have or
that they don't have until this thing
becomes the new standard that in and of
itself to me says that with this new set
of standards when it comes to the
development Commission in my opinion the
non-compliance issues are probably going
to be more important in my mind than the
compliance issues because if they if
they know it's arson
Pass or Northwest lodge or whatever and
they from the get-go and they decide on
their style and then they go through
that process with the staff seems to me
that it would it would result in the DC
having to be the non-compliant issues
would be probably fewer but more
important i well I I don't know whether
they're more important I think they are
definitely where our focus would be and
now you know we give the applicants a
chance to look at the staff of port or
before we issue it they are have an
opportunity to give us input we want to
make sure our conditions are clear if
they disagree with them it's good to
know where we're going coming into a
meeting with you guys and there's going
to be one to three things that they
disagree about and that we've had a
chance to have that conversation and
then come in here and make our case but
that you're right that those are the
main focus of the time and attention
when we get here is explaining why we
are putting conditions on or where we
disagree with the applicant we can't
resolve it through a condition having
you know making a case so you guys can
be the arbiters um one thought about the
stream you know if you look at the look
at Google Earth or whatever and look at
that stream I don't even think you can
see the stream I mean it says it looks
like a grove of trees and you said class
four does that go dry it's class four I
think it could be an intermittent stream
I don't know that this one is it may
very well be I just don't know that much
about it so maybe this is more just
theoretical that it it I guess the
question about changing the whole
building to have it focus on that open
area or that natural area that doesn't
seem like that much of a
and a natural area well that is so I
think I think Mel veg is a super
important point and that was one of our
questions among ourselves and back to
Crandall Aram villa is yes we think that
you know this is this natural areas are
significant community value is every
natural area of that value or are there
certain like class one and class two
streams or certain levels of wetlands or
certain kinds of protected areas like
our Pickering ponds those are stormwater
ponds should those be treated as natural
areas should certain kinds of slopes
with or without trees you know and so I
mean I think that's an important thing
for the Commission to give us feedback
on because that I mean a huge amount of
the city becomes subject to the Natural
Area regulations if it's everything so
and that's okay but we want to be
intentional about it if that's the if
that's the expectation gateway I'm sorry
go ahead gateway on the eastern edge
basically behind me the Sammamish Club
yep there is now a class as I recall
it's been a while class for stream or
yeah it is supposedly a class for really
well and gateways actually all three
sides except for the Newport side is a
wetland so along i-90 along yeah and
then I try to solder this this Amanda
stream began with them in the senior
place as I recall it and I think this is
a difference of what worked what we're
talking about the developer of the
Gateway I believe is going to do very
significant improvement of what is now a
blackberry lined
ditch that may have been a creek that
the form of the agricultural use of the
land made it a drained
and the applicant is going to do a lot
of work as I recall to restore it to
something that has rocks and deadfall
and things like that minute and that to
me is a question that the applicants
doing it there on a class-four stream so
what what if any would be the obligation
is maybe higher than a class for stream
because there's no water in it look at
it every day
uh well I I defer I don't know that for
sure but the point is yes it's it's a
problematic stream both of our
problematic streams and one that the
applicants got a significant part of the
plan to quote restore it and in this one
it's not his profit not the applicants
property but if it's a ditch where do
you where do you draw the line yes okay
can I instead of debating the status of
the stream in the studio I think the
point though that we're talking about is
the relationship between this project
and its design and what's going on
around it really is it a natural area
that's around it whether it's a
designated natural area or not it might
be something else I mean that's worth
recognizing it's part of the project or
you could even have a plaza and a
building that's across the street you
say well if we do something interesting
on this side of the street now we've got
a nice gateway Plaza entrances so
there's there's a lot of relationship
questions that you think about and how
its designated obviously if it's
designated in a city plan as a natural
area or a critical area that's dealt
with under critical areas code and how
it gets addressed but how the building
interrelates with that I think is and
what it is whether it's man-made or
otherwise is the conversation that the
staff needs to have with the design team
and then eventually would come to us and
we would think about that I think that
context question is an important one as
we're dealing with this and the other
part of that context question is is it
what what is there now or is it what is
that going to be anticipated to be there
into the future that sometimes is a
interesting debate and depending upon
what the long-range kind of picture
looks like as far as the redevelopment
and potential redevelopment of
neighboring properties might be too so
there's some discretion or judgment I
think that needs to be applied there but
the idea here is what's the relationship
between the building and what's going on
around it in this case with this size it
would seem to me that maybe the
architect is just seeing this stream on
a on a plan when you actually look at it
thinking well would you say okay we need
to orient this building towards that
under this new natural area code seems
overreaching does it dump it like that
and I don't know if it's orient and and
I haven't looked at the words lately so
I'm doing this from distant memory it's
recognized right I think I think the
issue is that and and part of I think
the approach that our consultant took is
if you leave it up to the architects and
this isn't I'm not slamming anybody in
the room if you leave it up to the
architects you know they build what they
want to do there regardless of what's
around it usually and I think all
they're saying is take context into
consideration and if there's an open
space or as Mike pointed out maybe it's
a public space the building should
somehow reflect that it doesn't have to
I don't think they're saying it has to
completely kind of say that that's the
jewel of that piece of property but you
shouldn't you know that building veiled
and this I think is a criticism I don't
think you would know from that North
elevation that there's anything of
particular on that side because it's
just it's just the building architecture
just wraps around and you know I was the
comment that ray made earlier and if the
doors are truly there I don't know that
that elevation if you were walking down
the sidewalk how do you know where the
front doors are I it's just all kind of
blend so so there's pieces I think that
this is asking us to think about context
is one and and the degree of
impatiens mal I think I think there's
some latitude there and maybe it should
somehow be based on what that is right
if it is a qua Creek you know maybe
that's a very different approach then
whatever the name of this stream is the
safe way backdoors drunkest ditch Oh
aren't we poetic you know III agree -
Keith I think the applicant or somewhere
in the document needs to say that it's
they need to recognize that there is an
asset here that they need to address
however where you want to address it
maybe you want to a visual approach to
it
or physical approach or maybe a plaza
but you recognize that there is an acid
here that you should do something about
it and not just ignore it and I'm sure
that applicant a lot of them that I've
seen they will come back and they will
say we recognize it there's a stream and
then here's how we propose to address it
and if we put enough language in the
standard does it recognize it what are
you going to do about it
are you just going to ignore you can't
do that so what are you doing about it
so something like that I think and then
it's up to the Commission and maybe the
staff in the first trial go through it
see that approach that they put in there
is that is that fits in to our needs and
if the applicant says yeah I think that
reason and if staff says now doesn't so
if it comes to the Commission and you
know we're not we're also painting we're
being paid this big bucks to make that
decision and we may not all agree to
what they're proposing and maybe we can
go through a vote for says yes and three
says no and then we can proceed from
there
well and I think that the point that
you're also bringing up that's a really
interesting one is our streams and
critical areas are rated so there are
different levels and so maybe the extent
of response is based on the rating
system
that the level of response so you can
see on the slide that the creeks on the
north side is different than you know
the is quad creek and therefore the kind
of response that you would make to one
is of a different magnitude than the
kind of response you would make to
another this here are the standards
national are those national the ratings
ah no but they stayed mean the time line
type - yeah yeah yeah I mean they are I
don't think they're completely uniform
from city to city but they are you know
quote having fish or not having fish you
have to use best available science so
there's going to be a lot of similarity
between what any city is doing because
well the reason I ask is that it seems
to me that you know Puget Sound Chinook
have been declared are listed and so
that's pretty that's federal it's very
clear about anything it has to do with
an endangered species especially an you
know none crominus species that migrates
and and with the emphasis on restoring
habitat but but that's why it puzzles me
that it I mean the origin of the ratings
that's when we come to traffic we're
talking about national standards that
apply in all states the Fed DLT enforce
them so I fish aren't engineered well
yeah but I mean no I just it because
that's clarity for an applicant I mean
if it's a company in Dallas that's
applying shouldn't they just know from
the get-go when they do for site survey
that they've got a obligation I think
and we would tell them that and the
state does you know review and approve
the standards not they they don't they
don't require that every city have
exactly the same standards and mean and
frankly with traffic there's more
and one there's an ite manual there's a
San Diego there are more than one manual
out there just most cities choose to use
the same manual yeah you know the I
think you bring up a good question about
the level of response but I guess I'd
have a question about it in some cases
do you even need to respond in the way
they talked about because reading
they're their natural context which is
the things they talked about things that
were appropriate front doors oriented
towards open space entrances facing
regulated creeks or wetland open space
and so in this case you would according
to the manual you would have to
orientate your front door to that Creek
yes and and I've already said to them
that I don't I mean because if you have
to have and we've talked about it and
they agreed that it really should be a
door shouldn't feel like a back door but
your front door is not going to face
that way in most cases because otherwise
then you're putting a back side to the
street I mean we I think what they're
trying to do is provide a more balanced
response between how we handle streets
and how we handle natural areas but and
to recognize the value of the community
but not to turn our back on the street
in the process right but the way and the
way yeah and and I would agree the way
it's written right now would indicate
otherwise
and then the other question be like the
step back that upper floor step back
like in this case with a freak like that
is that important enough to say yes you
need to step back the upper floor of the
building you tell me I don't think so
because nobody's going to walk in that
Creek or that open area I mean it's a
Safeway parking lot behind it so this is
this is a pretty big philosophical part
of this right right and that is do you
require an applicant to recognize open
space and treat the building accordingly
now you might be able to do that a
couple different
maybe it's a step back we had the same
conversation with Costco because as Lucy
mentioned they're treating the ponds and
Pickering similar to a natural open
space you know and they had had
basically a nine story stark edge
against that you know against that pond
and you know what they suggested for
them to consider was something like a
green wall that could potentially soften
that edge and I think what they're
looking for again is for the applicants
to recognize that you're adjacent to
open space the building shouldn't just
be a stark flat edge because that's easy
to do you know is it a step back is it
some green treatment is there some other
things that you could do I think and
this digit I think Mike's point earlier
is it's important to recognize what's
important but can you give the
applicants the ability to maybe address
it in maybe more than one way and and
maybe there's some offered maybe there's
some of these pieces where that is is
some direction we should give back to
the consultants is you know rather than
making it a mandatory step back maybe
which does have some light and you know
air flow and other benefits so there
there is benefit to the step back but
could there be other choices and that's
you know that's up for you guys I think
to have that conversation but but
remember Costco is not under this d'azyr
no annual so this was a conversation I
don't know whether they would have bent
Crandall Rendell ax would have been as
magnanimous if they had been under the
manual so I think it's a good point of
consideration for you but I think the
way Crandall ran Beulah responded may
not be indicative of what what the
manual would or would not allow them to
do as currently drafted exactly right
and and and I completely agree with
Keith this is a essential philosophical
point it is a value of the community but
that doesn't mean that that inherently
leads to we must always do X so I think
we're looking for guidance from the
Development Commission on the
appropriate steps are they the same for
every kind of stream or open space maybe
they are maybe they aren't that's I
think what we would like to hear that's
I'd like I think your idea of saying
having something in there saying the
scope of your respect for the stream or
the open space as they put it would be
adjusted according to the size and type
of open space that's there because
you're right Issaquah Creek versus this
two very different open spaces or as
Mike said even if it's a public plaza or
something that works the same way so
it'd be nice if there was something that
would say you can have your scale be
adjusted you don't have to hit all of
the appropriate items or something very
small but if it was big you may have to
hit all these appropriate items that
make sense so how far ahead we have to
look though
so if the city would like to hit when we
talk about green necklaces for example
there are going to be pieces of property
that will come in that will become green
necklaces eight years from now the plan
just goes on indefinitely right based on
funding and the hydrology and the flood
plain Maps and so on it well there's a
point the point that that Mike made is I
mean we do know where critical areas are
in fact I think it's the other kinds of
natural areas storm ponds non-critical
areas slopes those kinds of things but
and there are there are that's what I
was getting at with the ratings I mean
it seems to me it's pretty pretty clear
now that the city and the and the
applicant knows that there is a
class-four stream there and these are
what this is what you can and can't do
and the applicants in some cases I
believe have the option of saying we
will improve
or we're just going to ignore it I mean
it's it's there so I seem that the
guidelines seem to be pretty clear now
so that does gives them the options so
limited let me just unpack what you're
saying a little bit Randy just I don't
know whether it helps or it's extraneous
heading into the weeds I I would include
open spaces and things like that too I
mean it seems to me that this makes it
clearer than the previous set of
standards we have to deal with that's it
so all I'll add is that with wetlands
there's a certain buffer that is
required you are allowed to reduce that
25% under certain circumstances and if
you enhance it if it's already a
fabulous high quality buffer we're not
going to allow you to reduce it because
there's no enhancement necessary but the
you know gateway was a good example
there was a lot of reed canarygrass and
they were willing to pull all that out
and rebuild the buffer and in exchange
for that reduction another thought I had
on this the it's a good example of
saying here's a building that's really
not arts and crafts at all you know put
a slope through change the windows make
it asymmetrical and balconies a lot of
stuff you have to really change about
this and I guess that two things one of
the interesting to see okay if you went
in and quickly redesigned the building
what might it look like but the other
question of do we want to have just
these four styles you know arts and
crafts and Grange and lodge we'd be
saying that a building like this Billy
can't go into downtown Issaquah it makes
me question are the guidelines to
strength
so in this and this this just to put a
finer point on what you just said Mel
this building couldn't go into central
is a quat outside the core if it was in
the core then you you're choosing
northwest contemporary and even though
it still got some red checks
I think it's dealing with different
issues than it did under the Arts and
Crafts style right right exactly so yeah
so if this was across the street where
Safeway is that it's in the core right
you could do how you know and then this
building is is judged differently so so
mission Morgan what are you suggesting
that there there should be another or
one or two more styles because I you
know I think one of the things that we
the reason we're here tonight is that
we're we were dissatisfied with the
breads of the things that came before us
and so now we're saying well we've got
to make some anyway so yeah so yeah are
you suggesting there ought to be one or
two more styles in the in the book I
wonder I yeah I don't know I I'm sort of
on the fence about that and I guess I'd
be like with this if you went through
all the changes they recommend to give
it to arts and crafts slow proof the
window changes Aysen a symmetry and the
design what would this building look
like with that so the interesting thing
happen triangle and a pencil oh you know
so one of the so I think one of the
things were responding to is the comment
that us go ahead and say Atlas was
Orlando architecture right I mean that
it could go anywhere I mean in I think
it could it could go it could plop down
in Phoenix in Orlando in in Dallas that
building could be anywhere and I think
part of what how the pendulum swing back
was we want buildings that are more is a
claw-like and you know and our our key
Jack from Portland tried to figure out
what that was and you know as you guys
talked about tradition and heavier
styles and earth tones you know this is
the pallet they came up with and I think
the question is and the one that's you
know the urban Grange is the one that's
a little bit on the edge to allow
something a bit different but you know I
guess you know it's a great conversation
point and you know part of it and I want
y'all to remember this that we're not
going to get this right to start with
we're going to we're going to we're
going to get a tool that we don't have
now and then as we go through projects
and this is why I think this was super
super beneficial because not only was
Vail something that you guys had seen
but it also was next to a critical area
so it gave us that opportunity to really
unpack that conversation about you know
what does that really want to look like
but as we go through this and we start
to struggle with maybe some projects we
like that don't fit you know it's going
to inform us that maybe we do need
another style and I'm not trying to
defer that conversation because if you
guys want to find and and maybe when we
go through the photos you know you guys
will say hey here's a block of photos
that we really like that maybe don't fit
into any of those is across styles so
crandall arambula pick us of six style I
mean based on these photos and that may
be a great outcome don't know because we
haven't done that yet so and I I've been
um you know it's an interesting an
interesting question I know that you
know we've all kind of fallen in love
please
staff has with Connie's sheep herding
and pint drinking comment and and there
is a certain level of historicism in the
styles that that were selected which was
part of what we were looking at is quad
buildings to see if there were modern
examples that and and frankly I'm
looking elsewhere I've got Whistler
photos I was up on orcas this weekend
I've been kind of looking at non
single-story non residential buildings
but you know trying to think about
historical examples that are maybe more
modern I will tell you that that you as
a crew reject a lot of those pictures
and that isn't a criticism it's just an
observation that there is a kind of
early modernism
that's from sort of the 1920s that you
know Kevin will like and I will like but
you guys don't like and and so it may
end and all I'm saying is I think it's
going to be hard if you are not picking
it and I think it's the right thing to
do so I'm again I'm not saying that I
think it's a mistake northwest
contemporary is going to be the thing
that is most like what architects are
doing now and so if you want two
distinct areas not allowing Northwest
contemporary in the traditional Esquire
whatever we're calling it area makes
sense but if you are trying to find
other styles that have a certain
historical character and yet are not
quite so historic are more 20th century
than maybe late 18th or very early 20th
century I don't think you guys are going
to like them I mean we could certainly
look at pictures and I'm happy to do
that but a lot of the things that I like
and and you guys are very adamant about
would be those kinds of early European
modernism that a one exception I've seen
is that you kind of are attracted to
some of the sort of industrial style
buildings but that sort of more stripped
facade more punched windows not a lot of
trim
that's where you guys say that just
looks brutal to me you know and I mean
that in a kind of architectural style
message yeah yes so just something to
think oh I so this we could debate this
probably for a long time I think this is
actually a really important kind of
point to try to get some clarity around
and my guess is that as this advances to
the council there were probably similar
conversations about these styles and are
they the right ones and neither is there
enough breath here etc but I think it is
you know as we think about how the city
will develop into the future and the
look and feel that that we're trying to
either preserve or and/or create I think
the style question is going to be really
important and I agree I we're not going
to get it exactly right and we have some
experience and it'll be some adjustments
codes and standards are always being
updated so it's nothing new but this
will be a whole wholly different
approach a thing for Issaquah which is
good but this I think rambling on your
little bit look as we move ahead to the
images in the pieces that actually will
generate a little bit more kind of
feedback I guess from the Commission's
points of view because they're not going
to be the same I think on all those bins
of what we like and kind of where would
you'd like to see it happening and maybe
there's a hybrid that comes out of it I
don't know between the Northwest
contemporary and and something that's a
little bit more traditional or maybe we
just stick with where we are at the end
will be but that that might help us a
little bit calm as we look at some of
those images that you sent out to us
brochure and and we could do that and
then we can circle back to this - let's
take a time that probably makes good
sense okay so um did you want to laugh
oh I wasn't going to log into the
looking at photos until we had a chance
for the public to be willing to provide
some input if they so choose
GW back please honey please light up
okay Connie Marsh and I live upon squat
so some of the things that are missing
from how things usually come through for
you is the staff usually has a position
and in this situation it was what
somebody else thought
and so when staff is put in the work at
reviewing the whatever it is and they
think they're going the right direction
the conversation is not as gentle and
easy to get things changed as it was
tonight because they think they're doing
good and you can understand you don't
want to go backwards is painful to go
backwards and then to try to identify
what exactly it is from you all and get
it on paper it all hurts and so that's
missing and so what I'm going to do is
I'm going to sort of add that in from my
own experience and you can throw things
at me if you like sure go ahead I get to
throw back though so of course we don't
have it up anymore so I'm going to be
doing it from memory
okay my memory of that thing was that
the person on staff who was presenting
it said well there's this little stream
thing but it's off-site and there's a
road in between so the critical area
code basically says you know there is no
buffer because there's a road there and
so it's off-site and we don't really
have to address it and so there you go
now we have this new overlay and the
staff person says the exact same thing
well there's this road in between in our
critical area code says that because
when there's a road in between a stream
that it is no longer a buffer
it's off property so we just don't think
that they should be orienting anything
toward that stream and then you all get
to say well we don't think that's true
we think that even if it is they're not
on their property that this is the
Issaquah way and it should be oriented
there and the staff person stands here
and says the code doesn't really support
orienting things toward
totally off-site small critical areas
and how do you fight that and that is a
realistic scenario so now let me tell
you a little bit more about this
particular critical area which is point
number two if you are supposed to be
identifying the context now other
development staff is going to have to
provide you with the complete context
and in this situation that stream runs
year-round it is follows a public
pathway that is signed and mapped with
the city as one of our main walking
corridors and I sent Lucy a picture of
this walking corridor which is actually
connected as a pedestrian pathway to the
library distribution center and going on
through to the Safeway shopping center
so this is actually a major pedestrian
corridor for the central Issaquah area
that people use all the time and so all
of that was left out of the context so
now if the people don't use the road
except for for emergency is this not an
opportunity to instead get a lunar style
little Plaza going there where you could
enhance the creek and make a happening
that connects with one of the major
pedestrian corridors that we have now
granted the Safeway has this big hideous
wall that has no decoration whatsoever
but people look at
the ever flowing stream as one of those
few places where you can just sort of
get a hint of a natural area and in in
this time of year there's this beautiful
umbrella of trees that you walk through
and so you're going through this
vegetated tunnel right in the middle of
your central area so this is a moment
yet you miss all of that when you're
looking at this flat presentation where
none of that is is provided for you and
so then you would be making a decision
that might not enhance what is already
there and I don't know how to get all of
that information presented to you so
that I could have the Issaquah connected
it's a quad that we could enjoy those
moments happen when you judge the
positioning in the situation of your
building so I think the presentation
style of the staff and also what they
require the developer needs to change to
gather the situational feel okay that
was very long but hopefully I drew a
picture for you and Lucy actually has
pictures of it right and so then when
you go to you looking at the checklist I
would be interested in having you all do
the exercise for yourself where you're
checking off the boxes and you're saying
well do I think this is right or wrong
or right or wrong do I liking do I not
like it and does it fit with our town
and why and before the meeting starts
and and share that information for the
first few times that you use the
checklist so that you become familiar
with it as as a tool and I don't expect
it's going to work very well initially
I think it's progress in the right
direction so I think that all I'm going
to say cuz otherwise you'll forget
anything I said all right thank you but
mister check ma'am
because what I make a question and a
comment following that public comment as
I believe it's relevant sure we have
been in our training classes or our
review classes it was brought to my
attention after I'd been on the
commission for a while that trying to
think of the exact wording that it is
preferable for the members of the
Commission do not visit the site in
question before there is a formal
presentation is that is that correct I
would say it's stronger than not
preferred so we're not supposed to go
look at the site because you know of us
to be you're supposed to be responding
to the information that has been
provided to everybody now I think to
Connie's point she's welcome to send in
if she feels that that staff have
overlooked some aspect of the context
you know we provide you with all the
original letters that we get so the Lucy
let me know ask this I mean I understand
the rationale for that it I was going
out and looking at every single
applicant if it's a question of when the
information is available though when the
public when the notice goes up and the
notices go out to everyone within 300
yards or feet whether of the of the
application doesn't that constitute the
ability of anybody that's interested to
go look look and go what was that sign
stop the car get out and look at all
there's a big white sign there I is it
is it the the notification that there is
an application for there
that constitutes or is it the actual
fact that as members of this commission
we are not to go look at it even if it's
been identified as a new apartment
complex or skateboard front of you know
plays or whatever so I'm not sure I'm
entirely tracking so I'm going to say a
couple things you need to tell me if
I've missed the point and we get the
question is we're not supposed to go
look at the site until there is a formal
presentation that's what I believe we
were told okay
yeah I yeah I wish that weren't the case
I understand why it is and I've been
complying with it but you don't quite
agree with it
no I don't agree but I don't I don't
agree with it either but I don't go out
you know but okay I don't know why it's
like that do well I think the reason is
that we're acting a quasi-judicial
capacity so where the judges are making
decisions and so they were supposed to
make a decision based on the record
that's presented to the Commission but
we're it's precisely the reason that
they provided that I'm compliance I just
have a big piece left to send all right
and I do think I do think that it's an
opportunity for the public to identify
those specific areas and interests that
they have that's part of their their
function that that's that gives us the
ability to leverage their understanding
and knowledge of specifics
so let's presented and and just since
that's news to me
but I don't have many rules Lucy and I
are going to chat that through we're
going to check in with the city attorney
and double-check that Randy and if if
there's a different opinion today than
there was previously we'll share that
with the Commission it is you know I
would don't kill into what Randy had
mentioned you know I don't think that
that's right no I understand I
absolutely understand the quasi-judicial
aspect of it that's why I'm complying
with it since but boy it's just yeah and
just to kind of reinforce that you know
we're asking for somebody to come in
with no knowledge of the site well you
know
all of us have lived here and we know
what the site is when you say Safeway we
know we're safe way is behind Safeway we
know but you know we're drawing from our
past knowledge of experience in an
exposure and to like randy says you have
a sign out there that says we're going
to build XYZ development here you know
what is it's all public knowledge for
again the people go we will definitely
follow up and check on that because I
think it's a serious point and and I
know there's a distinction between you
know that commissioners are not supposed
to do research on a project though so
you know wanting to know background on
developers and going to that extent you
know that's definitely not kind of part
of the protocol but getting familiar
with the property and knowing how the
site slopes knowing its relationship to
surrounding streets and development
well compatibility is is now a new
heading for us if the latter will be
absolutely so we'll we will double check
and get back to you guys because it's a
great question thank you sure okay great
great comments any others good pictures
let's look at some pictures I thought I
thought we were going to get done this
first part real fast these pictures are
going to take forever the good thing
that it's hot outside we're going to get
graded on our tests I just group them
kind by the evaluations that you guys
gave them okay so again so first of all
the characteristics I used non single
family multiple stories except where
there were Civic historic or squad
treasures newer buildings again except
if they were Issaquah treasures and then
grouped by the part of town so that's
sort of the lens that I put them through
you may have other lenses please
identify
so I think there were six of you who
filled this out and most of them got
evaluated by everyone as it got further
down the list
they got fewer and fewer so there are
two columns here one is if you like them
on a scale of one to five where one is
high but then also if they represent
Issaquah and that we got a lot fewer
comments on that so that's why I
provided this again so that is we're
talking through if you want to fill this
out that would be a useful tool for us
because you could like some I mean I
know there are some of you who said I
like this building it is not as qua so
III think those are two completely
possible scenarios so anyway these all
got the highest score the barn and the
library and four out of four of you who
did that rating so there were six people
who did one part of it and for people
who did another that's part of why I'm
giving this to you again in case you
want to provide that information so then
from one it dropped down to one point
five and those two buildings that got
that score were the train depot and
bones and again universally seen as
representative of the city so then the
next group was 1.6 or 1.7 this was left
to right High Street offices Timber
Ridge and City Hall and Timber Ridge got
added on at the end so a lot of gotten
evaluations of it as whether people
liked it but not whether they thought it
was asked why only got one person who
commented on whether that's why I said
one out of one
because to say a hundred percents a
little misleading
where's High Street so high street is
that is Squa Highlands it's kind of near
the cinema up above the YWCA anyway yep
um Tim Burrage is it Tallis and
obviously City Hall thank you for that
reminder Randy I'll try and identify
where some of these are and feel free to
just start talking about anything you
want to talk about I'm just kind of
rolling along then there was a big group
of ones that got one point eight many of
them were downtown village cedar stands
Shell station then there were a bunch of
them from Issaquah Highlands which
included Swedish hospital the fire
station star point which is up at 25th
and Park it's almost to the village
green and same with Blakely Hall which
is at the village green that's sort of
oval at the end so these were generally
got most people thought they represented
Issaquah but you can see that some like
the courthouse and star point for
instance did not get all everyone
agreeing and by the way I really
appreciated the written comments that
you guys put in I did not have time to
accumulate those I was working till
about 640 tonight to get this together
so but I think those are really useful I
mean I found a lot of you had the
courthouse was not universally liked a
lot of you had very thoughtful
evaluations of it and I find that I
think that was really helpful and I will
pass those along to Crandall Randall and
sort of assemble them for our use too
because I thought that was really useful
so I appreciate you taking the time
then the next group was sort of 2.0 to
2.3 that was John L Scott which is kind
of near the Transit Center in rally
property a YWCA family village it is quo
highlands near the Transit Center Costco
building 3 the hatchery the mercantile
building fire station 72 which is by the
Transit Center King County
administrative building which is almost
the hardest thing to photograph ever and
brownstones Brooklyn walks these were
the lowest scores at when I put two
pictures of the Transit Center up
because a lot of you said that it did
not you know you can see no one thought
it's represented Issaquah and I
understand understand that about the
West Side which where its loads the
green wall on the other side on the east
wall I always kind of liked never heard
for me to I didn't like the blank side
but the green wall that started to
having a certain appeal so anyway I just
put two pictures up because I thought it
might be worth talking about which which
side were thinking about when we're
thinking about you know not liking a
building once me they sort of the
question is good for a Transit Center
Transit building you know but I don't
really like parking garages the parking
garage is great right that's what I was
thinking about the answer to this
question
he liked the building or not right right
yeah so I I would like it better for us
on the ground but either side what
you're thinking about in the central is
a quiet if we're doing like a public
parking garage for example or even a
garage related to a building I don't
think that would be discouraged
to privately we'd be pushing it
underground but it from a standpoint
from an architectural and fit from an
earth for urban core I don't I'm missing
it for both and I think in my comments
you mentioned if you look at the
Highland Park and Ride that has a much
more kind of interesting
urban feeling and you've got similar
kind of a situation you've got two very
different elevations on that building if
you look on the west side versus the
esight but they're both different and
interesting I think they would actually
fit so if you're looking at thinking
about garage and try out it so that was
one of the buildings I added I have a
slide of some ones that came up through
your comments they're only about four
buildings that got added but I thought
that was a really and I I don't know why
I put one in and not the other but you
know who knows
hi mark was another one that got soso
rating I was not surprised by 710 Fifth
Avenue someone said it looked like cargo
texture I would I would agree I think
it's kind of fun but that doesn't make
it is too clogged again I would also
point out it's the same architects that
designed the subject of tonight's
meeting the same would you say didn't
know that Lucy I think that's a good
point too because as an interesting
urban building I can see it it just
isn't I don't think from what we've
heard from the public of projects we've
reviewed I don't think it to me fit any
of the categories we'd be looking for
and that's that's agree.i commissioner
Morgan I agree and I think it's really
interesting to sit here and look at the
and go through this process and realize
how many of these buildings were
approved by this development commission
that that are not getting very high
ratings it's intriguing to me and very
discovery Heights there's three
different phases and I didn't really I
didn't have a good picture of them we
went out with staff today and we took a
lot of these pictures so they're kind of
quick and dirty pictures not necessarily
ones we would use if we were putting
something in the manual the there are
several phases of discovery Heights the
left and center picture are the early
phase are the later phases but the one
on the right has a little more of it
used them I don't know whether I would
say arts and crafts but you know it had
some pitched roofs it had brackets it
had more of the vocabulary so I didn't
know whether as a taller building I'm
not saying that it would meet our
parameters but I thought it might I
didn't know which building of all the
one because I listed more than one
address so I was curious if
commissioners had made any distinction
between the various buildings I know
with me it was the building on the left
and that I liked the balconies but
that's what I would think and when you
talk about brutal architecture those
sections that stick out with those to me
or to overpowering it's also I mean when
I look at these it reminds me of what I
what I think a lot of people feel I do
too that there are actually two lissa
clause I mean that was the whole idea of
the urban village that is not Old Town
it's not in the valley it's a whole new
way of accommodating the agreement of
one a curve developed with four acres
there are three acres to go to public
land so does it represent Issaquah well
which I squat are we talking about are
we talking about the one that's in
the famous Center in from the sunset
magazine article the people they talk to
I believe for residents of the highlands
and they various acquire it's not the
same as people who are complaining about
it publicly and coming here in the
meeting about an application and the
architecture in particular so it almost
it almost depends on which is acquire
are we talking about when we say is it
is it compares it represent this quote
well so we're in a little bit of a
conundrum and and and and and so I'm
just going to I I may have or some of
the other commissioners may have already
heard this you know what we were trying
to do was we we definitely want distinct
neighborhoods we don't we're not trying
to build esquel islands on the valley
floor or the valley floor on his client
so we want to maintain that distinction
at the same time you know understandably
Crandall Ram Villa is a Portland firm so
they're going to have a lot of Portland
examples and we were hoping you know as
a staff person you know we write design
guidelines and then applicants have to
come in and use them and we're picking
pictures often of things that we know
using pictures that we've often taken so
when we look at those pictures we see a
hundred times more stuff than that
picked that little tiny picture
represents I'm looking at Crandall or
Angela's pictures and I am looking I'm
like in the position that the applicants
in and I'm thinking I don't like that
very much I mean I don't that picture
doesn't tell me very much and so you
know we were talking to Donna ramble and
he said yes you know we would like to
have more pictures of Issaquah in there
because this things that the community
supports so I don't put this in here
because I think that central is question
look like it's client ones but there may
be some buildings as we're seeing that
that we think are close enough models
with certain maybe
caveat that would help communicate to
the Commission to staff and to
applicants in the public what we're
trying to do so that's why there's some
pictures here so I have a commentary
about this page in general and I think I
think it's thumbs up for me what I
struggle with most is the term Northwest
contemporary I think the problem with
that is that's not actually a style
Northwest contemporary breeds everything
on that page and they're all different
you know I heard that term when I moved
up here 25 years ago and I've been
trying to figure out what Northwest
contemporary is and I still have no idea
but I could also argue that the flip
side of that is at the downtown library
to me is is truly Northwest contemporary
if we want to get down to something
that's that's beautiful and you could
put that that moniker on it so and it
was designed by an architect from
Philadelphia yeah and so well I think
they did their homework is what they did
and in context then therefore becomes so
important and I don't think any of these
buildings have context and I just don't
I don't I worry about Northwest
contemporary I think moreover is my
biggest concern in all of this because
it's not a style all these other ones
are actually styles and there's no box
around Northwest contemporary anything
goes it's like put a slanty roof on it
put an angled beam on it thats my that's
my commentary and I think we're all
fairly adverse to those buildings and
and I think we'll see more of that with
with that style being out there
that's my - I don't know I I can't think
of another style I guess is the problem
well let me and maybe that's the point
of Northwest contemporary I mean I'm
willing to look at it from that angle
that it is open-ended
it's just be contextual make an effort
make a nice building here and then and
then we we we review it on those merits
and maybe that's enough let me ask a
question to that because that to me that
goes to the core of what the Commission
has been asking since I've been on it
can you do anything with this that says
Northwest and/or Issaquah as opposed to
something as we mentioned earlier that
is absolutely indistinguishable from
anything in Phoenix or Philadelphia or
whatever I mean that has that is an
issue so that if they come in with a
nice with something it is compatible
with these guidelines and it's it has a
quote Northwest component in a design
right is that not what we're what we're
trying to do we're trying to give the
applicant the idea that that's what we
want to see I would agree and then and
then I go back to these images and
there's no Northwest in those images
except the bottom right image the lower
pedestrian oriented building on the
lower right that that probably is it
supports that building it's probably the
workout facilities or the pool something
like that so did you have Timber Ridge
with seven earlier pegs because that
would be a question to me I think that
may be a good example of Northwest
contemporary for a taller building for a
larger building maybe that becomes large
style or something but this is something
where I could see this building and I
would agree I think that's a nice
building I think it's when I look at it
I see lodge but I agree it also has
northwest leanings right
certainly does and I would say the true
same is true about the high street you
know it's it's Northwest in its
treatment of its cornice its materials
the divisions in the window it's there
you know it it starts to approach that
the City Hall feels Romanesque it feels
really out of context of anything around
in my opinion but it has a pitched roof
and it's made of brick is up it could it
could be in an arts arts and crafts
bucket for sure so I threw just and we
can keep flipping back and forth but
just to finish the last group were some
of the buildings that came up that were
not included one was st. George's Square
which is on Gilman by Gillman village
for 85 reindeer is has a kind of
interesting combination of brick and
corrugated metal with these sort of two
story elements Pro Alliance which is a
medical office building next to Swedish
and then the s qua Highlands
park-and-ride ProLiant is that a like a
porte-cochere on the right oh yes yeah
okay so the view from that side might
give it a bit I'll tell you from a site
planning perspective I can't stand this
building but I don't have strong
feelings it pushes aside against where
you're driving in towards right I mean
they sort of started with the elevator
tower and designed their way out but I
think that architectural II in terms of
elements in terms of color in terms of
materials I think that it is a good
building to discuss in terms of whether
we think it fits in even if from a site
planning perspective since the whole
building is oriented to a
parking lot we wouldn't and away from
the street we wouldn't want to do that
but that doesn't just like anything else
that doesn't mean that there aren't
things to talk about that our good
reference points and let's see that
building also it intrigues me I've been
been there and that wall that act it
does look at on that is a parking lot
there the major parking lot for the
building or the only parking lot for
that building
but that wall has those windows on the
right of that building have spectacular
views I've been and I literally the
first time I went in there I thought why
is there a blank large blank wall was
that kind of you that could ask so to me
it would have been something you wanted
to emphasize with the architecture I
think it's a good Northwest contemporary
example but it's also an example of
something we would have turned away with
recommendations you know there's a blank
wall blank wall but but I appreciate the
corner the porte-cochere
on the front I'm sure really brings it
down to a human scale I am I think it
has potential it just need to be pushed
in the right direction I put the the 485
Rainier was mine that was an example for
me of how the urban Grange can be used
the urban Grange doesn't have to be this
large a loft style structure I think it
can be a single or two-story structure
and I think it could house office spaces
I think it could house commercial and a
variety of things but I think if you
move around that building it's doing a
lot of interesting things yes and then
the st. George is great I think that's a
good Arts and Crafts building I like it
of course I guess the 45 Rainier would
it I didn't go back to look but would
the would it fit with the Grange
requirements in term no because it's not
big enough
yes yeah so I mean that and I'm not
saying that that should be the
definitive answer
just saying the way it's defined right
now in the manual would say this
building should be something else which
I think would bring up a good point
because maybe we should be able to build
smaller ranges yeah that is the pitfall
yeah I said on that we the developer
Commission often that was one of the
first ones that came before the
Commission when I was on it and one of
the things that I recall being said
specifically about that was that it's in
the trans it's the transition between
Old Town and and the area that on the
north of the creek where confluence park
is now and it's a very in my opinion to
this day it's a very smooth transition
from Old Town into the areas that we're
talking about here and the architect or
the president the applicant I recall
that application specifically talked
about trying to make it compatible with
Old Town and yet not not be 1890s
architecture I think you talked about
this a few times and that's the idea of
trendy is prescriptive as we can to give
direction and certainty at the same time
we don't want to be overly rigid and and
rule out having this sort of a building
constructed so how do we how do we do
that and partly that might be from some
experience here and applying these
standards once they're on lies but the
idea of having the ability to have the
flexibility to integrate multiple
elements of a project or stateless and
from a scale standpoint this makes sense
even though it's not at the grand scale
of a grange building but it's got the
key elements and let's advance it as
that you know but the Commission
obviously there's some risk to the
developer now because the Commission
needs to agree that that's okay with the
staff recommendation but i just-i again
i'm back to i worry a little bit about
getting overly rigid and boxed into some
of these design standards and not have
some offering for there
some features that are integrated and
they may not meet that specific when I
look at that building I see urban Grange
but if the applicant came in here with a
craftsman pitch I could buy it you know
I don't know you know what I'm saying so
is there is that the wiggle room in and
of itself right there I don't know but I
hear you hi Gary
I know it's Lucy the building on the 45
right near that you can just see the
pitch of the roof is that I can't recall
now is that a separate no this decision
right here is a part of everything kind
of a little bit larger scale than then
this element and and you know one of the
challenges and and I we want
predictability for everyone we want to
feel like we have clarity we can't we
can't have it just be a gut reaction by
the Commission and I'm not saying that's
what you're asking for if there's
flexibility there have to it has to be
predictable and circumscribed and clear
where there is flexibility Crandall
Randall is not described flexibility
although I think we found that their
language is not quite as you know
pointed as we might suggest if we wanted
that level of clarity and I think this
is something that we're struggling with
trying to determine what is the right
tool to get the best success and not
miss good opportunities and I you know
on the building the catalysis structure
the timber beverage yeah that to me that
obviously that's the building but to be
if I were to look at that that picture
of that structure I would say yep that's
urban village and that's part of that's
part of that development and it's in
that style but if I were to be shown the
opposite side of that building with the
perspective and I would say no way
because it's you know that you probably
know it's called the Potala by a lot of
folks because it's massive so it's
intriguing to me that we can look at a
picture like this and say yep that's
that's what we want but the other side
of the building in the perspective yeah
yeah which is why I didn't show I
figured that was not the scale and such
that we were looking for but I do think
you know one thing about this building I
think from the it's a tall building in
from the street side and you're 900
sides you're going not from 900 we're
going up up the hill next to it I think
it for a large building next door Street
on the slope I think it does a pretty
good job of connecting with the street
not being overpowering showing a nice
face of the street and you're right from
the downhill side it's building but we
won't have those kind of slopes downtown
you know so one thing that interest
interested me was whether the Issaquah
Highland Park & Ride was one to consider
putting in I left out some buildings
that I might
have that I thought were too modern and
there's a new mixed-use project at
Tallis I didn't put that in it's pretty
modern there was something else I can't
remember what it was I just sort of
filtered those out figuring that wasn't
something that I mean I guess for
Northwest contemporary it would have
been an option I guess that's one
question for the Commission is you know
and that's where you can use your little
forms and you don't have to say it out
loud and you can just give it to me
but whether it's quo Highlands
park-and-ride seems like a building that
we should be including as an example of
things that we think represents
Northwest contemporary
in is why do we want any more parking
rides well garages are going to be a
part of some of what what we're dealing
with well true yes you know we are
ultimately when I'm long since under the
sod supposedly going to get a light rail
station and that light rail station I
mean I've heard a lot of discussion in
the last couple of months about the
folks that are going to be driving in
from Maple Valley and North Bend to use
light rail we're going to be driving in
to do it so parking lot our part I think
I I would argue in part of it I think
the idea if you say put a park and ride
at eight nine eight about a nine ninety
and somebody takes a shuttle bus to the
park and ride you know I know
our station comes with a new 500 stall
garage so there's a new grudge comes
with our parking parking right yes yeah
with the new train station yes so to the
question know about it you know as far
as now for a garage if this was going to
be if this was a facade of an office
building I'd say
I don't think so but thinking about our
trying to integrate the design of what
is typically a fairly clunky structure
is in a non interesting structure as a
parking garage a treatment like that I
think is a good example and if you flip
around to the other side of this it has
a full wholly different elevation and
treatment it's got actually artwork
integrated into the side of the building
a bit when it's windy it actually moves
it's kind of it so it is I think an
example of how you could treat a while
pregnant and kind of expectation that we
don't just want blank concrete faced
with some vines going on yeah I like
this building I like the gabion wall at
the base you know the cornice treatment
and then if you just take an account the
context of where it is it fits perfectly
and I know it's hard to get into it I
thought that's another story but but
it's parking garages go I really think
that's a good one and you're gonna need
parking you're just going to need it
nobody can't hide from it what was it um
I reviewed my quarry Kevin they just
said that vine-covered because I the one
in downtown me yeah yeah me that's as
good as a parking lot well garage gets
this the on the north side of the
Highlands garage got that little bit all
that metal stuff yeah well yeah but I
think is I mean is kinda artwork on it
well yeah and it's better I it's better
than the picture of a white - for me
yeah yeah that is absolutely stark which
is the verb or the adjective that's been
thrown around so much as what we don't
want and if you're going to have a
parking garage - maybe and you can you
can put fine to change color you get
some red in the fall and you know
whatever
that's Northwest yeah I think it's
actually
like about yeah between the two garages
you know the parking right I think that
this is with the vine on the side I
think that kind of covers it and like
Randy said it changes colored and
whether it's next to the fire station
which is a I think it's the front of the
of the park and ride is right adjacent
to that and to me they fit be darn well
together as adjacent structures down so
I and that's the point you're making is
the context and how does it fit so you
know if you're in the middle of fairly
in contemporary architecture and you
stick parking garage with a three-story
green wall on it in the middle of that
it may not fit so well and the other the
one if the Highlands may actually fit
better so but the point is I think it's
about the expectation on how the garages
are treated there there's an art here
and architectural there's architectural
treatment to the to the building it's
not just a right so so that may fit
better in a different location I think
that as Kevin said I think it fits
really well where it is a green wall on
that building probably wouldn't fit so
well they're fairly busy street it's
like well not a lot of pedestrian
activity at that location most of its up
further up the street so again it's
context since maybe we have a picture of
both one of the green wall and one of
the art wall on this working right and
and the point is we want some
interesting treatment that it because it
look like a concrete garage that could
be an office building
I mean that that doesn't say that
doesn't scream parking garage to me
that's the point yeah yeah and that's a
that's a good point too if it's if it
looks like an office building you go
around and around trying to find where
the engine is right that's the problem
that you know it gets to the seek is
being office buildings can you go back
to the Costco it's interesting to me
that three and a three said it
represents Issaquah which gets back to I
guess the question you brought up Randy
of you know that's not historical
there's a quad type of design to me that
suburban it's it's good suburban office
building design it's got in different
aspects I don't live like the stairwell
portion that sticks out so much but it's
got a sloped roof it's got modulation so
that it's not really historical in my
mind in terms of fitting right but I
like the building but right and it would
be though in the urban core so it did
Northwest contemporary yeah so that you
wouldn't it wouldn't be a his if they
were following the design manual this is
probably heading more correctly in the
right direct it'll fit the new Issaquah
but yeah right and my comment on that
Mel is that I I look at the entryway I
think they did something to it to
represent Issaquah they did something to
it and the rest of them
yeah it's modern misuk wha when you say
historical is a Quattro what is this a
historical risk while you're trying to
build a building that's four-story high
historically there's no this squad is in
heaven four-story high historically it's
all one story or two story this is a
three of four story indeed they put in
an effort to to enhance the entrance is
something like Issaquah I think that's
actually where I was country I think
actually that's another example of the
to which side do you which side do you
put up there because if you put up the
side that of the
on the Pickering pond with the wood
bridge and stone a little stone
gathering place there it would have a
completely different well actually I
don't ever see that I always see the
back and I I always like it right and
and and that's an interesting point
Randy because the backside of this which
you know when we were doing the STP for
Costco that was one of the things that
we looked at in terms of the evolution
of their architecture and this is the
first building that they designed for
themselves and while the front
this side is rectilinear the sort of
canopy that protects the back Terrace is
arced or something as it's much more
organic in shape which is kind of a nice
counterpoint anyway so I think we're
talking about does it represent Issaquah
for me it is is this the type of
building that we want to see it is it
does a style the feel the quality of
buildings that we want and that a lot of
that's kind of a personal reaction to a
lot of these things but I think that for
me is kind of the fundamental of the
question it's not under the match up was
something that was already got here it's
like well what do I want to see in the
future and is this what we're looking
for
and the examples are very helpful I
think to the design community they're
coming that will be coming in try to
design - did a lot and designed to be
standard so the example pictures that
represent what like I think are very
useful
so I want to know what you want from us
I guess I'm a little what we're doing is
what I want and we may and I would take
further rating if you choose to do that
and that's that this is what I wanted so
what I'm not understanding is exactly
how our weeks are we expecting these to
be in the manual are we expected do we
think just the top 11.5 yeah well I
don't even know I don't know
you know the barn may be a good example
or Grange the library may be a good
example of a civic building that makes a
departure I I think what I I so your
question is what's next
mm-hmm you know we have a small sampling
of evaluators here although extremely
highly qualified yes and actually Connie
did it too so I have not factored her
scores in here but I am going to pass
all of that along and you know we're
going to have a conversation with
Council tomorrow night I'm I think it's
a good point of conversation with
Grandal and ela about the buildings that
we're we're rating they may want to you
know for instance st. George I think
that in terms of massing and materials
there's a lot that's very nice about it
I don't actually like the windows
because they're in the same plane as the
body of the building and without that
sort of setback I think it has this kind
of weird modern slick feel with with a
more historic building so that doesn't
mean we can't use it it just means that
you identify that the wind when windows
are not consistent with the style you
know so those are the kinds of things
that I could imagine ways that they I
could imagine them using this but that's
a conversation for us to have but
we haven't had this kind of evaluation
then we're not in a position to then
have that conversation with them person
I'd like to see a lot of these pictures
in the manual I think there's a lot of
very attractive picked out a lot of very
attractive buildings and it fit well and
and I think it really just provides a
really strong lower frame of reference
for all of us no background or expertise
aside that that's our common ground is
what's around here and that's something
we can hang our hat on and really I
think has a strong communication active
communication and surrounds these
building well how what is the objective
in terms of the target date for getting
this in final form and when will an
applicant be able to avail themselves
himself/herself so duh we have proposed
staff the staff schedule is proposing
adoption of this in October but it it
depends on when the moratorium was
lifted I asked one question I don't know
if I'm allowed to ask or if you're
allowed to comment do you like where
this is headed as staff and will you
find it useful yes because I I am more
focused on urban design I certainly have
architectural opinions but I have you
know my experience has been more with
working with an architectural review
committee in the urban villages so even
though I'm trained as an architect and I
certainly have personal opinions I have
less opinions around architecture and so
I'm appreciating having a tool that we
have all developed and that represents
the community whereas I have stronger
opinions about urban design
nine because of wanting to have I think
that's a little more universal whereas
even though there are some very specific
things that I think are important in
iske in terms of how natural areas are
handled for instance I think that
Crandall Randall have also added a layer
and a level of detail that takes some of
our urban design another step further
that I think will be really useful but
the architectural piece I'm very glad
that staff is not asked to write that I
don't I don't know that we would have
been in the position to put this kind of
tool together and so I think it was
great that we got to hire a consultant
to bring that kind of expertise in
perspective I believe we're going to get
better buildings yeah maybe 200 can you
go back up in one slide
take one more this is a in the like a
couple questions here one is the mean
one is the mercantile building which I
can see representing is Klaus a
historical kind of building that was a
little surprised that it was it would
still be in the light category because
it it's a pretty to me it's a pretty
plain inexpensive looking historical
building and I'm curious as
commissioners talking I agree what okay
what I agree with Commissioner Morgan
you just said well and you know what I
did not specify when I sent out the
survey is what does like mean yeah so I
kind of intentionally didn't do that but
I mean it is a question of when you like
something do you like it because you
have nostalgic feel I started to put
this down and I just thought I'm not
doing that
so is it nostalgia is it because it's
integral because it represents community
because you want to see more of them
there are a lot of ways that you can
like a building and they may not at all
be consistent among the different
commissioners
and can I ask a question Lucy did you
think about putting Hilah station in
there in this Hilah station called the
the Raleigh hotels so I you know I I was
as I was driving around I today I
thought about that and I did think about
putting it in and I guess because of the
sort of not doing modern buildings I
sort of I think I filtered it out and
now I'm thinking I probably shouldn't i
I have I believe that that is those that
place is where we should be doing we
should be going more if we're going to
build tall buildings and they're going
to be at the base of cooter orcs quad
core tiger i I really think they did and
I you know we did not come before us all
right or at least not when I was since
I've been on the Commission about I I
think that's a group personally one of
the better examples of a newer approach
to tall buildings in Issaquah so I
frankly I'd recommend it okay they are
there I don't know how tile so I think I
might disagree your time with the new
hotel or the original the well the whole
I'm talking about though well I know
what your guess the original one is the
one on the like better of the two yeah
but when you look at them from if you
look at them from either the i-90
perspective or you're driving into them
or whatever I just believe that they're
they're good examples of I'd like to see
more of if we're going to go up that's
I'd like them to look at that feel my
concern would be in the original
building I I like that a lot more in the
newer one my concern would be there's no
balconies there's no slope grooves to me
it's a fairly boxy now maybe that fits
with Rendell rambilas idea of a starker
you know sort of plain building above
but I don't in my mind that doesn't fit
with what we'd want to do
okay this one I know what other people
think but that's interesting my opinion
I wouldn't want to have that one in
there also throughout it I would very
much like brownstones to be in there
saying very good the question be what
category would those fit in the in the
traditional area with our trained
architect I was with Evy that is our
grass okay now fits for that yes okay I
think between the pedestrian walkway
through and building styles I think
that's a great project see that downtown
would be excellent in the comments from
the Commission about from the public we
sign it stir again all right so so me
again I would like to have it so I
didn't have to come to every meeting and
say what was missing in context
personally I don't know that we should
have to haunt the meetings and provide
information every time but it feels like
we have to do that at this point so
that's a that's a comment extended from
the last one I wandered around took
pictures of all this stuff but after
reading the manual and how you're going
to use the manual it seemed to me that
there were a few examples of the
architectural style but many many
examples of the components part of the
varying buildings that is going to be
the main tool so windows doorways
reflections color palettes and all of
those things so when I was looking
around I was trying to identify what
category would go in and then look at
good and bad examples of the details of
the buildings that's going to be one of
the tools to judge by
and these pictures don't get you close
enough or for understanding those
details the Front's the backs the sides
of the buildings are all very different
with all the different approaches that
you have and it does seem like you have
to consider it all 360 because you're
going to be looking at what again
context on all sides and then one of the
reasons the park-and-ride green wall
fits is because you have squawk Mountain
in the back and you need the green to
juxtapose with the very very powerful
form of your forested hillsides and so
the idea of context means stepping back
and looking at your architectural forms
also in their natural context and then
if you go down maple and you squint as
you see the Maple Street building on the
left and the new hotel on the right you
go oh that is what sort of that Street
space that the consultants are talking
about there's a microcosm of a creation
of a street space in the core area and
so to me I went wow I have to be
thinking of all these buildings maybe
with zero setback side to side because
in a urban core your buildings aren't
one-offs like this they're like this and
this and this and they have to have a
certain rhythm and fit for how they are
put together and we aren't used to that
in this town it's a one-off with
landscaping around so I'm not sure that
that that change is in this manual and
as a tool to be used for the urban core
I also liked the library building and
several buildings around town and the
closest I could get it's not a real
architectural style was north west
industrial we have this sort of
industrial feel but we've been using the
metal grooves and and things that are a
little harsh it just seems to me like
the library you could use this sort of
modern industrial style overlaid with
wood instead and start turning it a
little more natural and it would
actually be a great architectural fit
we've built a lot of buildings that look
just like it we just have not used the
natural bits of wood to make it conform
a little bit to what we might be
thinking and I feel like we're missing
an architectural fit because it doesn't
have a name even though we've sort of
been creating it all along and and I
don't even I don't know how to fit that
into the conversation it just feels like
so many of the buildings we look at we'd
have to shove into a category and they
don't fit just right but see if you
squint maybe maybe we just need to call
that a style and say it's okay but with
newer updated materials not a blue roof
right okay I can test it thank you
thank you did you sign it so the further
comments I have a comment on a couple
big presentations just made by a Miss
March I wish more people would quote
haunt these meetings I really do the
public the public input and I know this
is televised but I just would encourage
people to come down here and participate
even if it's just to observe and the
more people that we get in this room
particularly those that do their
homework and come in and make
observations in a respectful disciplined
manner to me it's it's invaluable
absolutely mmm the reality is that we're
making some decisions that have
significant impact on what people are
going to be seeing and without them
understanding the context of how we got
from where we are there's always a
tension there why did you do that and so
we do appreciate we do appreciate
colleague and there's the next chance
for the public to be involved would that
be the August 31st planning policy
Commission well tomorrow night because
we like three nights in a row maybe we
are discussing this with the council at
landing short committee then on Friday
sort of packaging up all the comments
and sending it off to Crandall Randall
ax who will have a draft back to us mid
August work with them on that and then
head to planning policy 31st I think
you're right 30th 31st they would have a
chance to step in and make comments
publically
well good job everybody I think that's
been a profitable time so let's adjourn
it was a great job and always have all
those and putting all that stuff
together and that was grading
you