Pop's me
and all right I think we're ready to get
started I'd like to bring to order the
special meeting to discuss the review of
design the draft design manual chapter 3
and there's I think process-wise what
I'd really like to do is have people ask
specific questions about about chapter 3
and once we get through the questions
and we'll provide some opportunity for
the public to make comment if there are
members of the public it looks like
there are and then we'll go back and we
may maybe have some time to talk about
our thoughts overall and where we're
going and how to squad that makes sense
so let's let's get started so I was just
going to UM be annoying and just remind
you of the meeting schedule let's see
where am i oh here we go
so we have tonight and we have next week
if we need it just so you know the
overall structure last night.they so we
can't get enough of this so we were at
council talking about this for several
hours last night you love lucy' and then
early in August will consolidate all the
comments and start working with krandall
or Angela to develop the final draft
which will then go through a fairly
standard format of PPC and then on to
councils with the PPC hearing in August
August 31st we hope that some of the
commissioners will come to that PPC
hearing we know that in the past it's
been really helpful for them to hear
from you and especially because this is
your tool I think it'll be a good
opportunity to help them understand how
this tool how you see this tool working
and you know staff is certainly happy to
explain that but I think it may mean
or coming from the Commission anyway the
goal is to have this adopted in October
okay I've got the draft here in case we
have edits that we want to write up but
we are open to the general comments
right that open up the board and see who
has comments questions we're just doing
questions if doing questions now I have
a general question on page 71 of 93 the
harmony the inappropriate paragraph I
know we talked a lot about prescriptive
verses kind of there's some gray area so
who has like the final call on you know
a developer comes in with a design that
is somewhere in that realm who has a
final call to say no that's not
appropriate for our community well in
central Issaquah interpretations live
with the director and then they could be
appealed I think that you're the
inappropriate list here is our good
performance standards in terms of it
tells you which is what you don't want
it to do but without an image and
without more maybe some more specifics I
think I understand your question
you know just how do we get better
clarity about that so I think we would
agree that that language needs to be
fine-tuned so it's clear what look-at-me
architects for me so can I offer another
answer to so for permits that come to
the Development Commission as the
decision body you guys are the final
decision so if you guys altima decide it
doesn't meet the intent of the
guidelines then that's the decision now
as lucy mentioned the applicant if they
disagree with that they can appeal that
to the city's Hearing Examiner then we
have another conversation about who's
right
right but not all permits come to the
Development Commission some are
administrative and in that case the
staff will be using this tool and we
will then be the final decision-maker
again unless it's appealed and then
ultimately that goes to the Hearing
Examiner for resolution Thank You
general question yeah with the exception
of the natural context and the usable
open space sections is the rest of this
chapter pretty specific to the urban
core style zone or does this apply to
all of central Issaquah page 60 says it
does apply to all of central Issaquah
and I'm thinking especially about the
things like block size and so on is our
assumption that that would apply to East
End of Gilman as well as right in the
middle of the urban core yes
can can you maybe explain this block
sighs I'm not sure I understand how that
was arrived at is it just based on
what's there already or I mean we're not
going to tear buildings down and now
start building blocks those dimensions
are we well I think as pop so we have
certain streets that are in place and
then we have the properties in between
we so I'm thinking about this from both
directions that you've asked this
question just from a planning
perspective there's a lot of research
about block size Portland has a like a
200 square foot block I mean 200 feet on
the side Seattle has a slightly larger
block it's probably more like 220 by 250
and there's some square blocks and some
rectangular blocks it switches around
Westlake so I think that they're there
block sizes are based on that sort of
standard length there's a lot there's a
lot of research around why you want
frequent streets from a pedestrian
perspective from an economic perspective
so in terms of how you implement that as
even if you look at Central it's gone
now and I can pull up that map there is
a grid that kind of conceptual grid that
is overlaid and so there are absolutely
blocks that when they redevelop we would
expect a street to be built to further
subdivide and the sort of super blocks
that exist into smaller blocks okay if
that applies sounds like a wonderful
thing to do if you're opening an old
field and starting your own
because you got an existing system
already and I'm not sure how you get to
that standard block size with existing
you know if you're going to say we're
going to redevelop who blocks or you
know between two streets and then make a
developer put in an extra seat I guess
that's that's an extra Street I guess
it's okay it just seemed to me that I
didn't I didn't understand the basis
since blocks are already established
well right so if you look I'm not sure
that Crandall Aram Beulah would agree
with exactly this map so but I'm just
using it for discussion purposes but if
you look at this you can see for
instance in Pickering down near the Town
& Country even continuing into the
Commons they're showing a street grid
that is subdividing those blocks
sometimes where you have streets like
Gilman and maple and a mall and maple
that are already at a good spacing what
you're adding is further north-south
streets to shorten it because between SR
912 there are no streets and that's like
twelve or fourteen hundred feet long and
so we're anticipating that there would
probably be two more streets that would
be built in there and but you are
highlighting Carl that the challenge
which is that what if it's only half of
the block that is being you know it's
the south side of the block where that
streets supposed to go through and
that's part of our negotiation and part
of what we come and talk about you know
with a larger project with the
Commission this is how we're thinking
about doing this incrementally it would
it apply to the rally development
agreement property so that block size
does not because they have their own
development agreement but they have they
have agreed to put those same streets in
okay so I mean this grid has some
reflection of their Street system but if
you look at there
in agreement they have shown those same
two extra streets being built right so
but you know to give you guys an example
of how this is playing out in real world
so the street that's the north-south one
just north of tivitz Park right where
the hand is so right now we've been
talking with the developer about doing a
transit oriented development right next
to the park-and-ride garage where the
Century Link maintenance yard is so if
you go out there and look there's no
street more South in between where
CenturyLink is and where cascade
Business Park is well plan shows a
street going in there so as we've been
talking to the developer about that site
they are planning to build enough of a
street to accommodate two-way traffic it
won't be a full Street section but what
we call half street improvements which
is two travel lanes and then the
sidewalk on their side that will go in
with that project assuming it moves all
the way forward so part of it is you set
the framework so that when these
development applications come in you
know what you're trying to get to now
there may be cases where it just doesn't
work right and we realize that but
without having a road map you don't know
what to ask for so part of it is you
know and I think part of the
conversation is is this map right or is
what Crandall arambula doing you know
which is actually a little bit of a
finer grain block size you know is that
the right the right size you know
because that sets the expectations for
the conversations we'll have with
developers as they come through and what
are what's shown that we would be
putting in or have put in with that fit
with the 240-foot pretty much because I
think so I haven't gone back to measure
this but the in central is quad you know
we require the through block passage
every 250 to 300 feet depending on
what's kind of what's generating it so
Crandall Randall is recommending some
different tools you know we would have
looked for a street that follows this
grid that's shown and if your block is
longer than 300 feet
every 250 at maximum 250 feet you have
to have a through block passage which is
a you know 10 foot wide walkway with I
don't know 10 feet on either side or 5
feet on either side they're looking at
something that's more substantial as
they're through block passage you know
it's I again we sent them a lot of edits
and I haven't had time to compare their
document to the edit but you know that
was one of our questions is is it 40
feet or 60 feet and how do we know which
one and is you know what's the genesis
of that but I think what you know
they're talking about is almost like a
street going through either the mixed
mode or the pedestrian bike only secured
you see on page 76 block access through
block passages pedestrian and bike only
on under the appropriate order points
there I think that's a great idea the
question that I have I said who is going
to maintain that there's maintenance of
the walks the landscape all that I could
is a thought there is that the
enhance or the owner individual owner
that's going to maintain it or is the
city going to maintain that my
expectation is that they're privately
maintains I don't think we've discussed
that yet so I mean I think that's a good
question to make sure it's clear in the
document now or is it a Association that
all the folks living in that walkway
that area have an association they pay
into them between two dimensions right
also under inappropriate items there he
talks about inappropriate storage area
and storage rooms and trash
enclosure shall not be fronting the
passage there so the thought is that
were with the tenants or the arguments
of those units where would they put
their trash I'm assuming it's maybe
merchants or probably um probably in an
alley or underground parking right well
that those are so those are great
choices alleys are the best because
they're meant to be serviced they're not
meant to be pedestrian oriented and so
they serve that really well and they're
in a garbage truck can easily access
that underground is very common because
a lot of these kinds of buildings have
chutes and so you put those in a central
location and comes down the thing is
then then what typically the garbage
truck typically can't go in there or
won't go in there and so what that means
is that they have some kind of cart and
they're use a sort of trolley system and
they pull them out that means we have to
have a staging location but I think that
I think I would agree with what they're
saying is the staging wouldn't be in the
through block passage since that's so
pedestrian in such a sort of gathering
spot
I had one thank you I didn't see
anything specifically about streets and
sidewalks like Lane wigs curb radius
sidewalks tree periodicity and so on is
that out of scope because that's public
or should that be part of this document
so Center so essentially the central
istic law standards will still exist so
if we look at so this chapter chapter 6
has street standards with Lane widths
and sidewalk wits and planting widths
and frequency of trees now they're so
you know there's six moratorium items
and one of the other moratorium items is
vertical mixed juice which is the idea
of having retail uses on the ground
floor and either office or residential
above Crandall Aram villa has a separate
contract working on specific design
standards and potentially locations for
for that and they may make some
recommendations that regarding wider you
know specific widths of sidewalks I
don't think it's significantly different
than what we have but I think they want
to ensure that there are certain widths
there to support the kinds of retail
restaurant uses that you're likely to
get in that ground floor area so that
may we haven't decided you know if they
want to make recommendations or set
specific standards you know will that be
another chapter in the design manual
will that be another section of the
central is Squa standards we're still
we're waiting to get the content settled
to figure out where some of these pieces
will live and so if this document is
still used could we have a reference
somewhere in block access that would
point to this and say that the standard
for lane width and so on is in this
document well if this if this design
manual is a chapter of central central
is squad then they've got
all those pieces there together so I but
the point that you're making is an
important one is just making sure that
as we move these forward making it clear
how those pieces work together and that
they are still linked we have a question
on page 80 of 93 under building edges
under inappropriate they say that more
than one upper floor setbacks that
create the wedding cake appearances you
know why they think that's a bad thing
inappropriate yeah okay I mean I could
speculate but I I well so I don't know
from an aesthetic perspective here's the
one thing I can say is from sort of uh
and and Kevin maybe or Ray maybe the
best people to answer this but you know
structurally it's complicated when you
set a part of a building back because
you've still got to carry that structure
down so it may be that there's just not
they don't see the value of having
multiple setbacks if you're setting back
20-feet that may be sufficient to really
from the street perspective create the
perception of a four-story building even
though they're one to some number of
other stories above that and maybe
another speculation because I don't know
either but as but I haven't I've been
told I have an opinion on everything so
what I've heard them say is they want
all of this to be very purposeful so for
example if you're going to change
materials on the building facade it
should be purposeful and not seem random
right and so as you step back and you
typically do a step back for a number of
reasons one is you're trying to open up
a view corridor potentially but you're
also potentially trying to diminish the
height of the building by creating that
step back
and so maybe why they're suggesting not
the wedding cake is because I don't
think they see that that serves the same
purpose and it creates kind of multiple
planes which now you're trying to deal
with from an architecture and a facade
treatment so I don't know that that's
the answer but I think that might have
something to do with you know seeing two
bigger planes stepping back as opposed
to like a Legos is a better architecture
approach I don't know that it's
necessarily an urban design thing but it
seems to be in this chapter so we can
ask that question yeah okay I also have
the sense from that that they're really
talking about creating a space of
enclosure right an outdoor room because
people feel comfortable in that kind of
space and my sense was that multiple
setbacks just open up that room and you
don't have that space and I would agree
that you know that's what we're trying
to do this does open it up so you got
four storey and then you set back 20 why
not continue on and to limit that under
unappropriate I think that's a probably
good point that we should maybe bring it
up with video so these are great moments
where if we're all scratching our head
we need we need some more clarity right
yeah thank you um mr. chair Lucy on page
79 under description right um it could I
just ask the commissioners because we
have two sets of page numbers on here
okay so either state 72 or you know 80
of eighty ninety three so that I I can
make sure I'm looking at the same place
you're actually referencing okay great
thank 79 of 93
okay thank you mm-hmm under description
this is the parking structure and lot
and I'm trying to understand under
description it says in no instance two
buildings we designed to promote and
ohto orientation i guess you know it's a
building structure and why do we have
that statement they just mean that
building should not be designed to
promote an auto orientation their family
why I mean it's a it's a parking
structure what's the so this is what
they're let me just pull it up so we're
all looking at the images I mean I can I
understand that we're not trying to
promote promote everybody from getting
out of their cars and stuff like that
but this is a parking structure and why
I don't think this is a parking
structure this the topic is parking
structures and lots but the gray the
gray some of that when they say parking
structure that maybe the parking that's
just at the ground floor for instance
with another kind of use above or even
if it is a parking structure that's
solely devoted while it's for the use of
cars we still want the parking
structures to support and enhance the
public realm for pedestrians so if we
were designing it for automobiles we
would put no screening on it we would we
wouldn't care if it was a surface
parking lot anywhere on the block and I
think what we're saying is that the way
you design those things you try we we
need to have it functional for
automobiles but we're not trying to be
oriented to automobiles
does that make more sense I don't like
speaking from both sides there
Mountaineer it's it's a building a
parking structure but we don't want it
to look like a parking structure and by
no means that we designed to promote
automotive orientation
it's a parking structure so it takes
time talking about parking structures
within buildings that have other uses in
them well but even not I mean so let's
take a couple examples so one would be
let's take the example of a drive-thru
right drive to is very Auto oriented
right because it's for a car you don't
most people don't walk up to a
drive-thru and so the question is is
where do you allow that drive-thru to be
if it's an auto oriented design you put
that drive-thru out on the street you
want everybody to be able to get in and
out as quickly as possible in their car
if it's pedestrian oriented you put that
drive-thru on the back side of the
building so that the street can still
have an orientation to the sidewalk so
that people feel comfortable walking
into it and you don't have to walk
across a drive aisle right to get to the
door so that's that's not a parking
garage but similarly with a parking
garage
if I wanted to design the most easy
access parking garage I'd put a driveway
on every every Street right I'd put I'd
make put big signs and say here's my
parking garage and I'd make it as Lucy
said open so you can see it from
anywhere what we want to do with parking
garages is we want to be purposeful for
where those access points are so that
they don't put a driveway on every
street because every time there's a
driveway there's an opportunity for a
pedestrian and a vehicle to have a
conflict point right so part of it is
being thoughtful for where those
driveways are part of it is putting the
appropriate screening down at the street
level so that when you walk past it
you're not just feeling like I'm walking
past a huge surface parking lot in a
building right it's nice when the
architecture actually has some plantings
and some screenings and some other
things so as you walk past you don't
feel like this is a dead zone and I just
need to walk as fast as I can to get
past this building so I think I think
even though the function is is car
oriented I think the design of the
building is trying to be more pedestrian
friendly and you know thinking about how
it intersects with our desire to have a
fit
and walkable downtown you don't have to
buy that a lot of just made it all I'm
just thinking it was really this and
it's a parking structure yet we're
telling the description is that we are
not promoting Auto orientation so why
did we build the parking garage listen I
build it and then that takes care of it
but if we're going to do it that's fine
then let's just say that you know try to
limit the access to the structure or or
screen it or I mean there are a lot of
screening and stuff like that on
building edges in silicon which I agree
it's just that I don't quite agree with
that statement it says you know we're
building a parking structure but by no
means should it be by no means are we
promoting Auto orientation right I think
Keith Keith did a good job of
summarizing and though when he said that
what what if what they were really
trying to do is minimize minimize the
appearance you know make it look
pedestrian friendly and so if you go
down into the inappropriate it says
inappropriate or multiple driveways curb
cuts or access points along a single
punished consider consolidation and that
that's kind of what that sends yeah and
so maybe which is changing to say
something that affected you know
disguise it so that it looks like a
theater or looks like the neighborhood
it does not look like a auto parking
garage I said I've got a question on on
page 89 of 93 and the fabrics so it's
only canvas no synthetic materials and I
don't know enough about awnings at all
to know if most awnings are canvas or
they're either that's glass metal so
there's other choices I mean right um
canvas
is it is a material that you find I mean
it's not the most durable but it has a
nice quality with light coming through
it and then there they also do mention
you know the metal canopy so you do see
I think glass is another good material I
mean there's some downsides to glass
because it needs to be clean so it
doesn't look junky from above but the
vinyl tends to be the sort of
inexpensive big sign kind of feels like
it's been shrink wrapped and so I think
that's probably what they're trying to
move away from is there are there other
synthetic materials besides vinyl though
that are use on ships okay working on is
stuff that they use on ships it's not
canvas but it's not vinyl but it's a
synthetic material lasts a long time
holds up to sunlight all the things that
are bad protects against and I don't I
had the same question if you seem canvas
isn't very long-lasting not to mention
the fact that in this environment canvas
is organic and has mold and all that
other stuff grows on it
well synthetics don't do that right and
also there's a couple of different
purposes for canopies and I think what
you're highlighting Carl is an important
distinction like canvas would probably
be more for shade in the summer glass
and metal is probably more of a wet wet
weather protection and so it would be
helpful to understand some of that if
they're thinking about that it's not
that that you don't use canvas in wet
weather situations but you're right
those are some of the downsides so
that's a good question will for you and
one of the comments from the council
last night which I thought was really
good as it relates to weather protection
is somehow addressing how where you do
have weather protection if the purpose
is for all weather outdoor pedestrian
comfort a lot of times as you see from
the top photo what's underneath the
canopy is tables and chairs and so if
you're walking you're out from
underneath the canopy so it was a great
comment I'm not sure how you deal with
it because we want the tables and chairs
on the sidewalk but if they're under the
canopy then you're walking out in the
unprotected area so I thought it was a
great point and I think it's something
we have to think about as we put a finer
tune on this we've generally required
deeper canopies the other thing about
four feet is if it's I think they let it
go up to you
well twelve feet in height I'm doing
this from memory four feet up at 12 feet
up in the air doesn't provide much
weather protection so I think the other
piece is to look at depths that what
we've done is looked at depths related
to the height at which they're located
and having a maximum height because
there's a point at which the canopy is
really just an architectural feature
it's no longer weather protection and so
trying to figure out you know what is an
appropriate range so the four feet is
another good question to follow up onto
another question on page 91 of 93 under
urban parks were appropriate accessible
parts within three blocks of all
residents so they see I did a set a
standard that people develop property
they have to make sure they create works
in net and then and then the question
the other question is would the city
parks department have us want to have
some kind of say in this in terms of how
many parks they want to maintain the day
I got this I handed those pages right
and I know they have some thoughts I
think they were happy to see these pages
in there I think they were interested in
having some some you know the the parks
that they've picked a show in here are
the crown jewels of the Pearl District
in Portland it
jameson square and tanner spring and we
would be very lucky to have that quality
of park in our city but those are full
block parks that serve a large district
so i think part of the question is
minimum size maximum size frequency you
know if we're trying to do something
within three blocks which would be great
you know I mean having something within
a ten minute walk if you're going to be
denser and more urban is appropriate but
are those part of a project that are
then shared by the community are those
things that the city's providing good
questions I just don't I think we just
need to spend a little more time
understanding both with the parks
department and crandle Randal how to
sort of help set a framework that and
understand what they're suggesting and
what we think we can do right Thank You
mr. chair Lucy getting back to the
canopy again I guess I didn't I don't
think we want to limit the designer when
they come in
you know what can be provided what not
to be provided and and I read the
unappropriate this year oddly sized form
what does that mean no and the other
thing is oversize advertising for tennis
and I can see the example there but is
that what we really want we don't want
the commercial folks that have their
signs up there what happens if the guy
comes in with a canopy that slopes
towards the building is that an oddly
sized form you know glass going back
into the building so sloped towards the
building so the water gets into building
and then there's a downspout on the side
that goes down instead of sloping away
from the building word you know then
that's where all the rain the water drop
flying would be so an African coming in
with a canopy going the opposite
direction and said it
oddly sized form that we don't allow so
I guess you know I think we need to be
careful on what you put on that
inappropriate list and just let the
architect have some creativity to design
something and yet still within our
jurisdiction or reminisces know this is
not good now this is not what we mean
that kind of thing so in my mind right
now I don't know what odd besides form
means so judging by the page I would say
that the blue awning at the bottom is
considered an oddly sized form it's not
excited shaped oddly shaped and what the
attentive shape urban design thing is
you have a consistency and not have one
thing stand out to draw attention away
from everything else yeah that would be
an oddly shaped form yeah odd maybe your
interpretation that's an odd-looking
therapy to me I said no it's not not
it's okay I mean it's up for
interpretation absolutely and so by but
that's putting this category into the
inappropriate I think we need to be
careful to identify make sure that this
is what we want I mean I've seen I'm
sure everybody seemed canopy buildings
with slopes towards the building we said
an odd shape and one do you think they
make a provision for that here with
horizontal metal canopies and what that
implies is that will that will be that
type of canopy it would slow back little
a new piece injures a boat I get your
point
I guess I would ask isn't that isn't
that our job to then interpret what's
oddly shaped at the time it's presented
to us as long as we've outlined some
performance standard but I again you
know thinking that as a designer coming
in when he looks at this he says wow
oddly shaped forms is inappropriate I'm
not going to design my my putting on a
designer cap
I would say well I've been limited my my
creativity and just go with the regular
slope away from the building
that should get disapproved so let's use
the blue canopy as an example right so I
look at it and I see no relationship of
that canopy to the architecture of the
building so I'm going to call it odd
right and so let's assume I convince you
all that it is odd and we put a red
check on the worksheet and we say you
know what you've gotten you don't you're
not meeting this you know this
requirement because you have an oddly
shaped canopy the applicant has an
opportunity to tell us and convince us
no that's not oddly shaped it looks like
a big sombrero because I sell sombreros
I mean you know what I mean
so there's an opportunity I think for
them to explain and convince you as the
decision-makers that maybe we got it
wrong but you know because we're filling
out the checklist based on what we can
get from their application and they may
or may not have given us enough
information to have maybe taken a
different take on that canopy but
without any other information I think we
all probably have an opinion on whether
we think that blue canopy is oddly
shaped or not and that starts our
conversation here about does that meet
the intent of the design manual or not
you guys will then land in a certain
place based on some staff input because
we will have done a staff report for you
to consider and then the applicant gets
an opportunity to say okay I see you
gave me a red checker let me let me tell
you about that canopy and maybe that we
all go you go yeah I get it now it's a
great design we're totally into it yeah
selling hair oh and I understand where
you're coming from people but at the
same time I think we should give them a
lot of encouragement to come in with
different design and not just limit them
to this is how the design looks like go
look at the appropriate list don't look
at the if you look at if you come in
with underly an inappropriate list we're
going to have a long discussion and by
in his design he's got a lot of things
that he needs to get approval and this
is just another thing that he has to
argue or defend you know he's just going
to go with
the regular canopy you know it's cheaper
you know more regular and it's
appropriate and I know as a designer
putting on a hat designer I know the
city will prove it I don't need to come
up with something more creative that
looks different looks good I don't need
to do that I don't need to fight this
battle
I have other battles by the city so I
guess I just don't want to either
hands-on creativity I by locking them
down to you know things that it seems
like you know we need to release them
and have their great creativity to come
in and give us some good designs but
it's in fact the issue that we're facing
yes yes personally I kind of like this
paragraph I think of you district
driving down the abbé when I think it
went to see the vinyls in the oddly
shape
I'll definitely what kids you know we're
not talking to building we're just
talking about pretty much signage and
just an awning so I actually like that
we're not allowing vinyl or oddly shaped
awnings honor our streets and actually I
might go I'm iTAC Chua Lee put on
another requirement that maybe we
proposed color restrictions
maybe you can't have very you know like
we did with the buildings you can't have
a very bright blue or something like
that maybe they have to be toned down
and so I I think we're moving into
comments as opposed to a question so
let's those are good it's good
discussion but let's hold off and get
our questions answered first and then
we'll move into more substantive time
for comments question general is it
should we include any guidance on
building height here not necessarily
what maximum height of a building might
be what guidance regarding building
heights related to the enclosure section
for example where should a high-rise go
versus a low-rise building that kind of
thing should it be consistent building
height within blocks or is that a pro
grid for some other standard so I think
that an interesting question I think
that because they've established I'm not
quite sure which page the enclosure is
on so I'm doing this from this eighty of
ninety-three it looks like you right
they basically established you know if
you're setting back after four floors
then you're basically establishing a
street experience of no more than four
stories and so and then we also have the
styles that have certain height maximums
and so I think between the two what
you're going to end up with is a
character that's going to be
predominantly four stories long streets
okay so where would a high-rise be
permitted in this in the urban core so
Hagen went nine to ten stories there
something like that hundred twenty
five-foot building right so you know in
Vancouver for instance you have a sort
of two three-story podium with a taller
structure behind that some of them are
probably 15 or 20 stories and so I'm not
saying that this is intended to emulate
Vancouver I think they have a different
they're putting out a different vision
for is quoi but I think in that sense
that if you're setting back 20 feet
above four storeys then you are going to
generally from the street perceive a
four-story building even if it's much
taller yeah I guess behind my question
is some concern I've heard from the
community about high-rises and how they
might be integrated into central
Issaquah and so on
so are you suggesting are you trying to
talk about changes to the actual heights
or are you trying to talk about how to
handle the heights that are allowed
right the ladder that could we have some
guidance in this document that would
discuss that especially because say on
this page 80 of 93 right there talking
about the whole idea of enclosure within
blocks and to have that consistent and
so on and it just occurred to me well
would you allow a high-rise building
within that would you allow two storey
building within that if so where is your
idea of enclosure right because there
would be a block of uneven Heights it
would be the opposite of enclosure
I don't know that uneven Heights are I
think that probably the gaps in the
street wall are more impactful than
uneven Heights would sit within a
certain range right and but similar kind
of effect yeah right so I think that the
you know the one two three four stories
is not I mean I think we're going to
keep getting a lot of one storey
buildings just because to justify
redevelopment you're going to have to
get more development on the site to pay
for it so we're probably looking at a
street that feels like it's two to four
storeys and so I'm not sure that a
consistent height will be the key as
much as a consistent street wall I don't
know if that answers your question I
guess the concern still remains about
where are we going to permit 12 storey
buildings do we have any guidance for
example to do that at all in this
document or elsewhere yes okay I mean
the central is squad standards have
height limits in them right right
so that would mean that buildings would
occur anywhere within central Issyk wall
because it has high limit of 125 feet
what did you say so so there's not in so
to clarify when Lucas had not in the
design manual there's not you know so so
the architectural piece has some
limitations on architectural styles
based on height and we uncovered that
week ago that's just a week ago and so
but for urban design and I think the
point that Richards making is you know
right now the code so now we're going
from design manual to code the code or
the zoning standards for Central
Issaquah have a maximum building height
based on the zone whether it's the core
or the mixed use area it's got a certain
limit of height and whether you
incorporate the density bonus or not
gives you the ability even go higher I
would say that although this is this is
developing design issues like enclosure
and street wall if I had a piece of
property and I wanted to put a 10-story
building and I mean the core could do
that I have to pick the right
architecture which if I'm in the core
it's north west contemporary but I could
do that on any block with any
surrounding land use based on the
current what's in front of us now okay
so if there's if there is a conversation
that the Commission wants to have about
building heights and maximum building
height that that may be relevant but may
not be relevant to this particular tool
but that could be again a comment that
gets conveyed back to the council as
just a parking lot thing for the city to
deal with maybe in a different venue I
don't know I don't know that that
conversation is not going to happen
somewhere soon it just may not be
associated with the architecture and
urban design manual for central is a
clock so I don't that's not a very
satisfactory answer but it's it's the
one I've got
Thanks add sounds like it's a little out
of scope of the organ design manual
right now and that probably more like
the central looser coil and development
design I think it's so if I was if I was
going to choose to give a developer a
clear understanding of what he can and
can't do I'd tackle it there and not in
here because this is more this is more
cakes and frosting that's more main
course more prescriptive indeed but I
mean you're also bringing up an
important point is that these pieces are
not unrelated
on that same page Lucy on page 80 of 93
on the description it says upper floors
before shall be set back 20 feet so do
they mean it has to be exactly 20 feet
or did they intend to say at least 20
feet and provide some leeway or do you
should ask you what you think they
thought that way it's written it sounds
like it has to be 20 feet yeah all cases
I'm not doing a very good driving this
document as I try and move through it
I'm sorry I see it flash fine yeah I
think that's a great question no I don't
know the answer I've asked that the
intent is that 19 feet 11 and 20 feet 1
are both unacceptable but it's a good
question I mean the door the 25 right
you see a minimum but having that is the
maximum - that sounds strange yeah they
make the same reference on page 83 of 93
also that provides under descriptions is
provided 20 foot setback
and on
and then the question mr. chair on that
I have on page 83 of 93 in addition to
that 20 foot setback on the first
paragraph it says that the building
adjacent the natural area shall be
setback is there a definition of how far
setback is this is a budding natural
areas so the first floor first four
floors should be set back the question
that I have found we know how far they
should sit back well or is there ever
there's a baggy so that back above so
this debt back building it up at the 20
feet yeah he's 21 so what they're saying
is so so for the face of the building
that's next to the creek you have the
building face and then above four floors
you have to step it back 20 feet and we
got to unpack that and figure out if
that's magic in any way because the idea
there is again you want to open up that
natural corridor to get more light more
Sun all that kind of stuff and not just
have a bunch of flat building walls
against it you know plus part of this
concept is treating those as amenities
for public interface and so you know you
know trails we we sat down with them and
one of our bigger employers in town
yesterday and talked about one of the
proposed buildings that's going to come
to you guys soon and how they're
treating their adjacency to Issaquah
Creek and I think it was trail and
creating public spaces on that side of
the project is as important that's how
they relate to the street so I think I
think what they're saying here is that
step back on that natural edge not only
doesn't give you such a rigid urban form
next to the natural amenity because that
then become
very abrupt but it also then allows for
more Sun and wind and everything else to
get into that space and you're using the
same sort of scale techniques in both
areas where you're anticipating
pedestrians I understand that but if you
read the two paragraphs you know if you
read the two paragraphs to me it says
the first four floors has to be set back
and it doesn't say how far so where are
you reading that right because I have a
big eighty-three now I'm reading on 83
so it says a guideline is in description
if you read the two paragraph buildings
adjacent to natural areas it doesn't say
shall be set back it says shall be
stepped back so what that means is that
treatment of stepping back upper floors
is that's what they're talking about
they're not saying set back they're
saying it'll be stepped back well
actually what they're if you look under
description the second sentence where
I'm sort of pointing provided 20 foot
setback for all floors above the fourth
floor so I think wherever you're placing
those first four floors then you would
have 20 feet exactly and then go up
additional floors if they're present
okay so the question that I have is that
to clarify what you just said Kevin is
that the first four floors can be up
against where the property line is for
natural areas I know but but that would
also you would have setbacks from the
code anyway we already govern that so um
would be regular say that it may be that
something may need to clarify there's a
sit back right so there's an so back to
the table we saw earlier on building
heights also has step backs yeah
setbacks if it's a critical area that's
a different thing but if it's just a
natural amenity
[Music]
sorry I think Oh actually if you look at
page 70 let me see if I can get that up
here on 69 they have them and no 60 I'm
sorry
70 of 93 which is page 62 that's they
are describing
I think the page that you're looking at
ray is relevant but it needs to be
combined with this natural context page
and the map on the page before and that
there are a number of a number of
actions that are necessary and as both
Connie and Keith pointed out critical
areas themselves have a required buffer
and then another building setback area
so you couldn't be right on the either
the buffer or the critical area yeah
but further they're asking for you know
so if you look at and I completely agree
with you everything needs to be numbered
so that we are not pointing at bullets
visually like bullets better but I've
learned the hard way that that doesn't
that makes it hard to write staff
reports and have conversations but on
the fourth bullet under appropriate
public access walkways between regulated
Creek or wetland open space and the
building frontage so the intent is to
get people into these areas and so you
know that may be part of a it may be
part of the building setback area which
can have something like a you know a
paved trail but it's beginning to give
some breathing room I guess between the
critical area and the building well all
that I'm saying
is that you know on page 83 that set
backwards you step back I think we maybe
we need some clarification on that
because first paragraph says sit back
and then the second paragraph has said
anything above four floors shall be set
back
I think the second paragraph should say
step back with that 20 feet step back
but on the first paragraph you should
say sit back okay so I think they have
it right right I think I have a right I
think they need a step is go up and it
steps back right and they're going to
say that step that step back has to be
set back 20 feet so 20 feet should hear
you sit back we'll fix the language I
mean we could just say should be
terrorists or stuff okay question mr.
chair hung on page 82 of 93 under us
sorry sorry sorry page 86 12 93 86 of 93
under inappropriate we're not allowing
or it's inappropriate have blue-tinted
reflective in other opaque materials or
treatment why is that and it's the same
thing on page 87 also they say glazing a
distant that isn't appropriate
reflective in other opaque material and
the rationale is behind that well we
want generally we want i think they
added the word blue because we had
questions there are certain kinds of
tinting that goes into windows that's
that's kind of imperceptible but
improves the light quality inside but
mostly what we're trying to get at is
that it needs to be clear glass so that
you're seeing that you know if we're
going to put these active uses and these
windows you want to see what's going on
there that's part of that relationship
between the public realm and and what's
going on in the buildings so I think
what they're trying to get at is the
those are a list of some of the ways
that you prevent that sort of visual
connection yeah and I agree with you
that's probably what it is have that
transparency that openness between
inside and outside but at the same time
you know I've seen and you know you can
put a strip of reflective glass that
smoked glass that provides a little bit
of a privacy inside you can see the
folks in there but you can't see what
they're eating and have that that that
strip of opaque not opaque but tinted
shade that provides a little bit of
privacy so so loosely like that under
inappropriate I guess I don't quite
agree with that or maybe if anything
would be limited number of tinted area
in a glass or windowpane something which
is recovering this and comments then and
discussion
specific questions more had a question
on page 75 of 93c so one of the
guideline it says through blocked
passages shall be provided to break up
blocks over 240 feet and lengths so does
that mean 240 feet in width or 400 in
length
it's document page 67 loosing grab 67
thank you these little gray boxes are
like almost imperceptible when I'm
looking on this screen so I apologize it
just takes me a while to find it so um
can you just a touch above that it's in
a you got right there the guideline it
says 240 feet and length right so does
that mean it's a 240 feet in width or
400 in length or neither so a block is
so they've given us a maximum block
lengths and as sort of a minimum block
lengths of the 240 so as you begin to in
on either dimension of the block if
either one of those exceeds 240 feet
you're looking at a super block passage
okay so with that always be then 240 it
couldn't be 240 feet in length because
there there spec 400 by 240 right links
by width they may not always be that way
I mean we have a lot of I mean part of
the challenge that we're facing is those
existing buildings and so as as Carl
pointed out in a not Greenfield
situation we're going to be working
around that so you may have blocks that
are 240 by 240 or 240 by 340 or 240 by
420 I see so they are saying anytime a
block maybe 400 feet in length that it
needs to be broken with a through block
passage okay thank you thank you
other questions
it's free to pass go for it if I could
just make a I don't know whether this is
too constraining but would it be
possible to go through page by page what
said that we're not jumping back and
forth now that we're going to do come it
sounded like we're moving on from
questions to comments it did I
misunderstand yeah I think what I'd like
to do first is ask if there's any
comments from Bella I would thank you
sorry I heard the word comment right
well no that's what I said but so if you
want to make comment we'd like you to
sign in and make a comment
I will I'm gonna say there's a phrase
remaining I didn't assign you to be my
new yeah her believe I am her the key
okay my name is Connie Marsh and I live
up on squawk and so I've been running
around taking pictures of town and
buildings ok which has been sort of
fascinating and eventually you'll
probably see some of the pictures anyway
but that is brought a bit of a new
perspective into how this might function
so where do I begin
you all were with me in the past when
people would bring things in and you had
a hard time being able to say no we
don't want that we want this and it was
like well it doesn't say shell it's not
required
it says should and this is an
interpretation that we chose to make and
so here you are so as I'm walking those
blocks and seeing all these things that
didn't go well I become way more firm in
the conversation of when can you all say
no and how can you support it with what
language when staff has presented it as
okay and so far in this I don't see that
the language is there for you to use I
see lots of shoulds I see if you were to
choose is this good enough and that
doesn't seem like something to rest your
feet on and say no it has to be like
this because this language says so
so my bigger concern is our whole goal
is to make it so you all can say no and
I'm not convinced and perhaps what I
would need is I would need a the youth
the new tool laid over the top of the CI
DDS tool and try it and see if you could
you could make it happen using even an
existing building because there's plenty
of buildings to say yes and no two out
there in our town I'm here to tell you
because I don't want the same argument
to happen after all of this time okay so
that is my overarching concern in some
sort of potential solution to see how it
would work for you all staff is trying
to see how it works for them then I have
a little bit of heartburn over the
Front's of buildings because you're
supposed to pay attention to the
critical area the park the potential
pass through and the street so say you
have a retail building with that back to
a critical area are you mandating a
double entrance I just don't know how
many fronts of building needs to have
and then when you put that over the top
of where you can park it turns into a
puzzle that I haven't been able to
unravel I got some great examples of
don't do this in my pictures but I so
far haven't found the perfect thing not
having the parks sort of lined out on a
map when it says they need to be within
X distance of everything seems to be
such a gap if we're trying to create the
green necklace and they've disturbed a
distance and there's no dots I know that
the map is in progress but it does seem
like we have some of the critical areas
they're not all the parks are
conspicuously missing and I think that
would help
and then context and I think they did
okay on some of the context but they
didn't talk about the view protection
and I thought it was disturbingly
difficult to understand how to protect
the views of our Great Hills because
that was the best thing about the walk
around town
and they don't want to lose that but I
don't see any guidance or language here
that will help you protect one of our
core values of the city I so I would I
would say we need to get that language
put into place because I don't think the
CI DDS standards do it for us okay I'm
almost done I swear the setback from
critical areas we have filled the
setback from critical areas buffers with
parking consistently through town for
the last god I don't I don't even know
30 years so every place I go critical
area parking lot building and so well
you all seem to be saying we're going to
continue a setback from the critical
area buffer these guys are saying well
you can't have it be parking and so it
has to be something and so I propose
that you get rid of the setback and you
say well if you do not reduce your
buffer at all you can put your trail in
the outer tooth three-quarters of the
buffer and you can put your building
right up to a complete buffer and try to
activate our critical area buffers with
people because when they see them they
own them and they will protect them and
right now they're hidden behind bushes
at the backside of parking lots with
faded signs behind fences and it does
the critical areas and us no good
whatsoever so I would actually propose
that as a change in that would allow the
developer actually to have a little more
room in this labyrinth of things that
they can't do okay you're all looking at
me look at these eyeballs like what did
she say well maybe somebody knows Thanks
you know if let's say this as you try to
walk by the sign in shape I will just
photocopy the one from last week
no but Mary's already on here
what's got you dog I didn't say that I
added
I added tonight's date to last week okay
so thank you
three comments so how about this general
discussion what what do people want to
say or do we want to go through as
Lucy's those are games I'm sorry that's
right okay I mean I just proposing it
like that because then we don't end up
bouncing around all over I do have to
confess that I liked the page after page
after page as opposed to flipping back
and forth I'm unfortunately a bit of a
linear thinker in that regard well a lot
of linear thinkers now were there to
talk about unless there's something on
the cover of the urban design section
I'm on page 16 which is page 68 of
trying to get a PA of 93
so any comments about the next page 69
the map button so is that the draft map
to be refined is that where we're going
to this one have to do with the changes
with urban core taking out that section
or no I think there are a couple of
things that we have been talking to
Crandall arandora about and it would be
great if the Commission has some
thoughts about that so one easy example
to identify is Hill sites is it things
10% 15% we use 15% of islands but
maybe 10 percents more appropriate here
or 20% some more appropriate here you
know we haven't I think that that what
they're identifying is an important
thing because you know there is this you
know they kind of indicated there's this
ring of hillsides and as I pointed out
it continued here and then continue up
here
you know there's Cougar Mountain there's
sort of the toe of squawk and there's
the edge of the plateau I guess so there
it's all along there but you know we
didn't know off the top of our heads
what percentage that was and and wanted
to figure out what was the right
percentage but and unless you guys are
topographic experts percentages may not
be very useful because it if you think
about it there are many streets that are
15 percent and it's the loss images on a
bicycle of which pay needs well I mean
for instance I do know that a lot of the
roads that are along this edge of Cougar
Mountain have to be you know 18 percent
to get up
James bush roads an example which I in
goes to 22 I guess at some point so
that's a pretty steep hill so if you're
thinking about that as an example is is
it that kind of steepness at which
we want to have this kind of this kind
of relationship this kind of
architectural and site planning gesture
or is it a more gentle slope would be
appropriate to so Lucy
so I'll just admit I'm confused on this
one so I'm going to just go ahead and
maybe say something that's not very
informed so are there any hillsides
within central Issaquah or they all
backdrops so there are there are central
there are and the Commission is
painfully aware Innes wood gateway
gateway senior Riva
and we also know the very preliminary
early proposed black nugget a hotel
those are or Fred Meyer site those all
have so okay so let's just stop there
for a second so I guess what I would say
is there's a difference for me from
taking a look at cougar tiger or squawk
and the horrible-looking wall behind
Fred Meyer right
still a hillside but I don't know that I
want to see it right I mean so I mean I
think the question is are there
different hillsides or if there's a
certain slope we keep them all the same
because I mean that one's got Scotch
broom and other invasives going on and
behind a falling apart Soldier pile wall
and I mean I think I appreciate the fact
that we have buildings that cover some
of it up right as opposed to maybe what
we've been talking about in terms of
framing views for like cougar squak and
tigers so I guess you know for me and
again this is my ignorance for
understanding the rest of this chapter
of the manual is what are we using the
designation of hillsides for is it for
mostly kind of views and then are they
all the same or not so um I think it'd
be great to have a conversation about
views I think that this
is this particular one the way I've read
it not an expert I'm guessing as much as
anyone is more about building form and
how it relates to or highlights or
respects these certain kinds of natural
areas now I would say because this was
one of the thoughts I had in in thinking
about this is and I think you the
Commission saw this with for instance
Gateway senior that when you have
buildings that are on that are coming
down the slope at you know starting at
the top like gateway senior then you've
got certain kinds of things that you're
trying to do to not just have a big
blank wall of concrete that's holding up
all the active areas and so what you
require on a hillside may be different
than what you require next to something
that's going to maybe be flatter like a
creek or a wetland or other kind of open
space because if you look at this map
this isn't just about critical areas I
mean for instance the ponds in Pickering
are there so these are you know so a
question for the Commission is what kind
of green spaces do we want to have that
sort of treatment for is it only creeks
and wetlands or does it include other
green areas that are not just
undeveloped land but land that's going
to remain that way so that's one
question another one is what kind of
relationship are we looking at for
hillsides and then the third would be
the view question go well that you know
look in the description for hillsides on
on page 70 of 93 because wooded hillside
is greater than 10% slope I think that
would eliminate the black nugget Road
hillside there's no force no force left
up there yes justice
it's and that's a really good question
that was one of our questions was if
it's not touristed now but you might
want to reforest it or you know there
may be architectural treatments you want
even if it's not forested I mean these
are these are the questions yeah but to
me it would seem appropriate because in
talking about building design adjacent
to and trying to make an army well it's
a big wall and dirt above I don't I
don't want to necessarily complement
that how can I replace it right right
exactly so so it seems like the only
other real hill side that comes into
play then would be the down by Innes
would show that that hatch part so um I
I do think it's important to note that
this whole you know sort of hillside
that comes along here also even though
it's not in the central area well this
is all in central Issaquah up where BMC
lumber is yeah so the hillside is right
outside of it but since you're adjacent
to it it comes with that one yeah and
that's it no thank you for the
clarification yeah that's great okay and
you know to some extent that's true here
you do have the site sloping but most of
the hillside is outside of central is
quad but is that backdrop to a central
is cloth
well do you want us to go to page 72
look beyond them if we go past the map
on page 69 do we want to talk about page
70 then is the question you're having on
on this map what would constitute what
would constitute hillsides it if they
specified a percent slope for hillsides
and that's what's shown in the green
hash is ten percent so they said ten
percent like I'm pretty confident that
they did not have GIS technology to map
the 10 percent slips I think that you
know when you look at our topography on
some of the maps that they did have it's
it's apparent where you know you've got
a hillside just from the tightness of
the contour lines so I think what this
map represents is obvious hillsides that
are surrounding Central is qua not a ten
percent slope per se so when you're
asking if we think that's okay or we
want to define it more or less I and I
think to be fair I'm not asking you to
give me a percentage but to maybe talk
about if you have thoughts about how you
would like to have these relate which
kind of hillsides do you think are
important to either in terms of viewing
or building into or up against and the
same with the natural areas parks and
open spaces do when you look at some of
the areas on the map as I mentioned like
Pickering ponds or some of these areas
for instance near the Commons not all of
those are wetlands some of those are
kind of green corners and I haven't had
time to dig in to figure out what they
are and I'm not asking you to do this
instantaneously but just simply if you
have thoughts about what kind of natural
areas open spaces and parks
you would like to see this plan use
special techniques relative to well I
really like to thought of protecting our
health sides from development you know
we've seen lots of instances of where
it's gone wrong definitely um the
development to our further west on i-90
where there's some of you what's that
Bellevue yeah or there's some landslides
already and you know who's dealing with
that I think it's good to stay away and
preserve them because that's part of
what makes there's a clause so so great
so I guess Lucy as I read the sentence
under guideline on page 70 I think I
mean I think it's not exactly right so I
mean I think so you could take out and
the reason why I say it is you take out
the first premise and just start with
new development and I think that's a
true statement no matter where it is I
mean we want new developments to support
the unique setting of central Issaquah I
think that's a period I think I think
what they're trying to say is if you're
near one of these natural areas you
should your development should support
and strengthen the Natural Area the
natural context that it's in and I think
it didn't quite it doesn't come quite
come across that way might
no on that page that the death of on the
inappropriate just in this whole idea
and trying to read through this and
understand what their meaning about
complementing and reinforcing the
natural environment I got kind of
concerned I'm not sure if this is in
line maybe with Connie is talking about
but the inappropriate things the large
expanse of impermeable and permeable
paved outdoor areas or large expanses of
manicured landscaping areas it sounds
like they're saying the only thing you
can do is like have a trail our natural
area next to it and then to me it seems
to conflict with the idea that we want
people to be able to enjoy those open
areas those natural areas and if we're
saying you can't build a plaza there for
people to sit and have lunch or so the
key word there so and and maybe I'm
reading too much into it but for me the
key word is impermeable and I guess the
question is is so what if your Plaza was
pervious you know what if it had more of
a of a natural kind of context to it I
don't think I don't think they're saying
you can't have a public space on that
face I think what they're trying to say
is it should be designed in a way that
one you know
maybe doesn't maybe it's not just
concrete right maybe that's there's what
they're saying is you need to take a
different design approach to it if
you're on the natural side of the
project well but I understand but I was
thinking about that with the atlas some
of the discussion has been about well it
was not oriented to take advantage for
the residents of what's going along the
creek there and I think well if you want
to bring residents down and if you want
to have outdoor seating it's harder to
do that I think in you know contact
gravel or grass or whatever and to have
a courtyard that's impermeable I think
could be a nicer way to get people and
that would be I'm assuming restricted by
what you can do in any buffer zone right
you couldn't do impermeable well I think
I think that the the point that keeps
trying to make is
an interesting one because they don't
think under appropriate there's anything
that would indicate you know that would
complement that and say these larger
outdoor I mean I agree with what you're
saying now that we think about Pickering
I don't know whether you ever walk
around tinkering pond or whatever it's
called you know Costco has all those
large terraces that face out there and
that's one of the nice things about
walking there on a sunny day at
lunchtime is they're full of people
eating and you know quite frankly you
can go up there and sit with them and
they're not going to know what you know
there's enough people there that they
don't know who it is and they're
certainly welcoming of that and and so I
would agree that we if that's what we
want and it's simply about material then
we need to add something if it's about
not wanting that I'm not sure that we
would agree because we do want that kind
of interaction and and based on some of
the conversations that we've had with
Crandall Randall I think they would say
the same thing they they want people to
enjoy it I think I think that they're
trying to find ways that it might feel
less urban than what you would do at a
you know a corner of a building right up
against an intersection that kind of
urban Plaza would be different than the
kind that you would build facing a
wetland so I think they're suggesting
that that sort of distinction that is it
coming through at this point if that's
our intent yeah or in my mind I think
maybe in my mind they've gone too far
partly because you can't do manicured
landscape dairies either which I presume
means grass so if you can't have a
grassy area and you can't have Imperial
services so it's I don't get to make its
bark or sand or compact gravel or some
but it can't be compact gravel that's
actually am considered for avails right
yeah I mean I think it's a good point
yeah okay
of a general census we do want to
provide public access to those natural
areas and not not restricted if there's
a convenient way to do it it doesn't
impact adversely impact the natural area
right and I think it's just to take what
you're saying Richard a little further
it's not just access because that could
be a trail so but it's also a space
where you might be able to sort of
linger or gather or and meditate or you
know just enjoy the beauty of that
critical area and have that sort of
awareness that Connie was talking about
some more thoughts on page 70 we're
going to move ahead I know it's cool in
here and it's hot out there so we can
stay all night
[Laughter]
speak for yourself yeah
so let's move here page 71 any
discussion comments concerns boring I'm
sorry I did you say that out loud I did
was you know private development
especially residential commercial
architecture shall serve as background
buildings and I I don't know I don't
know that I don't want really body
buildings but I don't know that I want
people to design background buildings
for saying okay so maybe we should take
a step back and just discuss what that
when you think of a background building
what does that mean to you know that
there's no modulation it's just going to
be a boxy structure that's tan or gray
and all the same windows and so I that I
would say a background building was
something else I wouldn't say that it
didn't have interest and it didn't have
modulation but that it's
it's okay this may be a terrible analogy
it's like a well tailored suit you know
it is it's very elegant it's beautifully
detailed it's attractive to look at but
it does it's not a floral print with
wide lapels and bell bottoms so that you
cannot miss in velour you can't miss it
so so to me that doesn't mean that it's
it's unattractive or bland or boring it
just isn't doesn't stand out more than
the next building than the next building
they're all well designed they all
contribute to the public realm but they
aren't doing so at the expense or in
competition with the next building yeah
I understand what you're saying and I
think that no I think that's a very good
analogy I just don't know that I agree
with their premise because I I think I'd
like to see interesting buildings that
fit within the Issaquah palette that
we're talking about that are interesting
not background I don't want other people
it might be as simple as changing the
word I agree with what Lucy's saying
it's like it wants to given all the
styles that we've approved in that area
or in general I think we're going to get
interesting buildings just by virtue of
that and then it's our discretion to
make sure they're refined and
appropriate so I think we'll get them I
think the word background buildings
maybe needs to be changed to buildings
that that you know art it looked rusev
unobtrusive or or or comply with the the
guidelines in some fashion some way to
reference the guidelines because I think
there is a lot of richness in the
guidelines that that's going to occur no
matter what so so but I agree that the
word is is troubling but the notion of
it I agree with
especially with you know say the context
of the parking garage going back to the
parking garage discussion we don't want
it to be out of mobile centric yes we
know it's a parking garage but we want
it to fit within the context of the
other buildings and the block so we just
don't want we want appropriate screening
we don't want it to be served by a
series of ramps and signs and and things
that call it out as a parking garage
when somebody goes into the garage and
turns on their headlights I don't think
you want to be blasted you know so
there's things you can do to mitigate it
from being automobile centric although
we know it's a parking garage and I
think how you mitigate that is it has to
fit with the context of these design
guidelines does that make sense yeah let
me let me just ask you one question Mel
so if we if we maple street office
building which you know well which i
think is a very handsome and elegant
building it is a well tailored suit I
think of it by me so I don't think of
that as a pejorative to say it's a
background building you may feel that so
and so that may be the wrong term but I
think of that in terms of what I'm
trying to say about a background
building I think of the Maple Street
building as a background building if
there was a series of those kinds of
buildings going down the street
different colors different materials so
you know maybe you know I think that's a
three storey building if there was a
four-story building than a 2-story
building I think that they would make a
very handsome coordinated and
interesting and street face and none of
those buildings would if they were all
sort of of a similar ilk to the Maple
Street building none of them would be
more important than than the next one
and so that to me is what a background
building is not that it has been
stripped of all of the you know the roof
the detailing the articulation the
setbacks an entry that draws attention
to itself where you know where to enter
the building you know so I
I don't know if that helps and I'm not
trying to send negative about the
rebuilding no I think that's good
because I would agree with you and I
look at like what they're showing in
terms of the historic building you know
the very boxy structure same windows and
everything and maplestreet you've got
slopes in the roof you've got setbacks
and balconies and and so I'd agree and
maybe it's good to have it this way in
terms of it gives us more of a way to
hold developers back in if we think we
need to exactly because a great tool and
still have if the maple street worked
with in this context for staff I'd be
happy with it and I think it might be
easier to get rid of the term background
and just do an edit because the the real
bottom line of what you're trying to do
is to have the residential and
commercial architecture not compete but
rather support and Hanson define the
urban fabric I mean you're introducing a
term that at least one person or maybe
more as confused over why do I do that
right and and and I think that if we're
all comfortable with the way we've
described it then we can fund we can use
that as a sort of launching point for
the description without necessarily have
using a term that we feel may be
misleading security I would agree with
what you said about maple Building Lucy
and you know if it's continue looking
for but if we continuously have those
buildings all over Issaquah gee why do I
need to get a new architect we'll just
go to I think that's mithoon that design
just go to mithoon and they have the
price of it's just you know we're trying
to limiting you know we have to be
careful not to limit the architect
creativity you know through that's a
good building and I would agree with you
and that's what we kind of like to have
somewhere close to that sort of design
but I don't think we want to limit them
into yeah continuously that yeah just
copy that over and over throughout the
whole street and you'll get it approved
and from the applicants point of view he
wants to get it approve as soon as
possible so he comes in with
same elevations as maple building but
the inside is changed a little bit and
then get it approved so again you know I
guess I'm really very about just saying
use this example and then go with it and
I don't know what the right language is
you say you know this is what we want
but don't don't limit yourself to what
we think we want I think we're doing a
reasonable job of saying we like this we
don't like that if there's things that
we approve if it looks like this that's
good if it doesn't look like this if if
it falls outside those characters and
parameters don't waste your time so we
don't want to have to look at yeah Andy
you know if the designer applicants
knows what we want they'll just go ahead
and design the way it is the way that
they know we'll approve and and not have
that creativity that they have that's
what I'm under remind everybody that you
know we should kind of let them open up
the creativity and for them come in with
some design that they can that we can
accept I don't you know you can we say
something give us something that we
think we want we can't say that so yeah
that's why we're going through all this
exercise to write down with what we
think we want right well I think one of
the conversations for the Commission to
potentially weigh in on is you know it's
a clause grown tremendously it is still
a town of thirty five thousand people
and there are going to be a limited
number of civic buildings you know if
we're saying that civic buildings for
instance are sort of that punctuation
that where we would look for more Flair
more interests more out-of-the-box
architecture potentially it you know
we have none of those in central is
maybe right now I mean I guess well yeah
fire station 72 I I think that's a very
all over that's downtown okay so I think
we have some good Civic architecture do
not misunderstand me none of that is in
central is claw I don't know how many
more Civic buildings will be built in
central as well we might go to school we
might get one if they can assemble the
land parks might be another opportunity
for less understated you know so the
question is what are those punctuation
marks where we can give guidance and say
these are the things that with these
sort of handsome public oriented
complimentary buildings what are going
to be the punctuation marks that help us
orient and give interest within this
district and I don't know if you have
thoughts about what those are council
well I don't know if you can say this is
what we want you know and then say these
are not you know some of them they can
come in really nice you know even view
this inappropriate you know include that
into some appropriate elements and
they'll come out very nice now so don't
say you know these are inappropriate
they'll never come in with a vinyl
material canopy because that's not what
we want if you come in the whole project
is out the window
yeah so we shouldn't say that that's I
thinking is it let them come in and try
to incorporate something nice that we
can and we can say yes or no and make
some changes in there so so I think Rea
that the challenge is it is not it has
to be predictable yeah through and and
so well and and and I think what we're
what we've heard you know the way Connie
is describing it I think some of the FIR
raishin that the Commission has had and
the council in the community is we've
had to say yes to these things because
you know honestly we focused on urban
design and we're seeing that that has
not gotten what we wanted so we're going
to add architectural styles materials
colors which we very we intentionally
avoided that did not get us the results
we want I think what we've heard as
staff and I think what Crandall Randall
has both heard and proposed is something
that is more directive that is I don't
know whether I mean I know they say it's
prescriptive I don't I'm not quite sure
we're at prescriptive language yet and
and that's something we're going to be
talking about in that final document but
I well you know I'm trained as an
architect I appreciate the creativity
you're asking for but I think if that's
what we want we're not going to have an
architectural style guide because we and
we are going to have an architectural
style guide so let me just put that
footnote out there because we want to
put edges to this I believe that good
architects will find ways to be creative
because their clients are going to look
for ways to make their build you know
it's the Kaveri concern that Mel's
raising you know people want their
buildings to feel special but they're
going to find that specialness not in
the huge gesture or the bright color
it's going to be in maybe their entryway
or roof or a material or unusual window
combination or something like that so
and and you know the example you've
given the vinyl weather covering we're
not going to say we deny your project
you have vinyl weather coverings
we're going to condition the project and
we're going to say we like to it you
have weather covering it needs to be a
different material so and that that may
be a bad example
if the Commission thinks that vinyl
weather covering is the right thing but
I think that we are narrowing down the
choices to try and create a range that
we think will result in something that
feels more fitting in the city I agree
and I'll say you know this requires a
certain amount of trust trust that you
are going to get good designs and I
think one thing you can trust architects
to do is push this envelope continually
and I think it's up to us to then
interpret whether they're pushing it in
the right direction
I say - a project gets way better when
it has constraints so if we put a
framework around this I think it's going
to force this level of refinement that
is occurring now sort of anything's an
option now anything you know when they
were age clothing a red building all
three I think once you put a framework
around it it forces people in word to a
degree and boxes them in but what it
really forces is that the quality goes
up the refinement gets better and there
they're going to find the way especially
with you know depending on who your
client is I mean to your point Lucy is
the clients going to want their building
to be distinctive they wanted to yield
high rents they want it to be an
attractive building that fills up quick
and stays full so I think there's
certain amount of trust we have to place
in that but then we also have to operate
as that that we they're going to push on
us and we have to push back and I think
that friction is where we're going to
get a lot of distinction and quality
that's my opinion
so unless there's more compelling
dialogue let's move on to page 72 of 93
are we all voting for the bottom one see
that's an instance where we just say no
comments on this one why I thought we
should replace that middle picture with
the library their library looks way
better than that building I I did have
one question I'm not I just have a
question worried about the corporate
identities expressed through building
material and I know that I'm the bottom
one I think is obviously not something
we would be looking for but is there the
possibility of other corporate
identities at would fit an REI sign or
something like that would that fit in
the as well thing and so there there's
want to keep it a blanket just keep them
out so I think you're raising a good
point so I don't think that constrains
signs
I mean signs are not a part of this at
this point I think that it does I think
that it's going to be a challenge for
some corporate models you know red is a
classic Pickering barn red yes other
Reds no Krispy Kreme may not be able to
do well I so I don't know that Krispy
Kreme I mean I'm doing this from memory
okay it is a corporate architecture I
think that and and maybe that's the I
think that that corporate architecture
that fits with the architectural style
manual is going to be okay but if your
corporate architecture
I mean this is obviously an extreme one
but you know not all
well most corporations have an urban
model I mean you know that's the example
I think of first and this is again not
architectural one of the challenges we
had years in year after year at
highlands was they kept bringing in
their suburban model and we kept saying
we need your urban model we know you
have one you need to do your urban model
here and so I think that that while they
do have certain corporate you know they
want a distinctive image there's often a
variety of ways that they can achieve it
without necessarily losing all of their
identity yeah so like say a target
building that's in downtown Seattle
wouldn't be able to do a big red target
on a building like that right that
others that's another sign yeah yeah so
when our economic development director
boy yeah so one of the things that may
want to be in the guidelines section
because I think it's worth maybe
unpacking a little bit is you know what
it doesn't talk about because this is
about contrast right and you could maybe
say the same thing about harmony and
it's right now so I'm going to go and
I'm going to go build a new project in
central Issaquah somewhere well the
stuff on both sides of me are 1980 strip
mall right so so nobody's telling me I
should be have contextual harmony with
those things right and so I guess the
question here and this actually came up
in a conversation we had yesterday is
you know where is the opportunity for
someone who's really kind of the first
redevelopment project in a particular
area to set that style you know going
back to Maple Street building you know
you bet you can now make there needs to
be some sort of at least conversation
about there's now a context there that
somebody on an adjacent property needs
to work with in some way right it
doesn't have to match it but it needs to
at least acknowledge it and and reflect
it in its design in a lot of places in
central Issaquah there is no
context that we want to take forward for
the next 20 years because we expect the
whole thing to redevelop maybe in some
parts of central Issaquah so maybe what
we need in the guidelines section is
also some text about kind of the
pioneers within a certain sub area to be
able to basically choose and not have us
say well there's no there's no it
doesn't it doesn't have context with
anything else I don't I mean I don't
know where that goes in here but it
seems like somewhere we need to address
that piece because otherwise I could see
us having maybe not clear discussions
with applicants of saying hey everything
around me throw away I'm going to now be
the pillar of you know I'm going to set
the style for this this next block maybe
that's okay maybe it's not and I just
don't know right now I don't know how to
deal with that so we just might need to
have them put some thought into that
piece because we know there's going to
be places where it's going to be even
though it's not greenfield it's semi
virgin redevelopment property when you
write in the harmony section in the page
before good neighbors a new building or
development that supports rather than
competes with the established character
of the area and maybe you don't want it
to exactly yeah you know maybe I don't
want to be compatible with the Big O
tires maybe I do that's against big goes
higher that's exactly the point
greenie other comments on page 72 I'm
going to tension potentially skip page
73 let somebody have some real concerns
with a blank page that we have 74 1973
seventy-five
[Applause]
I think Karl when he brought up the fact
that basically his communities built and
so I think there may be value in in
setting this setting up this design
guide as a aspirational in some part
that says when the opportunity creates
itself to incorporate these these design
guides we're going to do it but we're
not going to impose them on already
existing stuff there may be some value
in trying to make a statement somewhere
that maybe it already does I just didn't
know this so is our is what you're
saying that if well I lumps Owens saying
is that when we have the chance to move
closer to this model we want to do it
that's all I'm saying right and and that
you know that's something we that this
is the hardest thing to do is how you
incrementally redevelop toward a vision
and I think one of the things we're
looking forward to is some more
conversations about how you do that in a
way that makes sense
as as you only have partial
redevelopment of a block for instance
yeah so in Lucy to that point I mean so
inappropriate on page 75 of 93 you know
one of the things that they talk about
being inappropriate as a parcel passage
and I guess the question is you know
there's going to be times let's say that
white building in the the bottom photo
is a redevelopment that's a new building
let's just pretend right and so we could
get that passage potentially along that
building but then maybe that next piece
which is in the yellow we can't get
until that next piece of property
redeveloped so the question is is what
do you do are they saying don't get that
parcel partial I don't even can't say
partial assets oh my gosh I need to go
sleepers you know you know I don't know
I what are they saying don't do it or
get
in maybe entitlement but not build it I
mean I think it I don't understand
because it's all going to be incremental
right we're not we're not going to get
potentially a whole block built at a
time and so if if the direction here is
don't do things in small pieces if it's
part of a bigger plan to get maybe a
through block connection or a mid block
you know access way maybe we got to do
it in pieces and so I don't know I'm not
sure what to do with that what about if
we just add the word permanent partial
passages well except it could be five
years that or ten years
I know but again if it's designed to
eventually go through when the next
place gets developed okay as opposed to
others of passage that we know we'll
never know readers so you could
potentially move the or in front of dead
end and have it the dead end parcel
passages just because you want to be
able to that one more time
yeah sake so because I think that's the
point is you don't want to get you want
to have a road to nowhere you don't want
a mid-block crossing that goes to the
back of a building right and so you know
so if there if we know it's likely to be
dead end we might send through permit
review say okay in this particular case
don't do that because that sends a bad
message to our community because we're
sending them somewhere that doesn't go
anywhere
yeah my interpretation of that was that
it's mid block that it just you don't
allow someone to end a passage mid block
because going back to it incrementally
you know you develop one block and you
have that partial passage and say the
next block hasn't been redeveloped yet
well once it is you want that that
passage already there to connect to now
the next one and I asked a question
about the nature of them are they are
they easements or are they right-of-way
I think that I don't know well probably
easements but that that's a good
question I mean I think that was the
question that Ray brought up are these
roommate
city's responsibility or I mean there
are different sides of the same coin
is are they dedicating them as
right-of-way my guess is not but then
you would want some kind of easement
that allowed at least the through block
part of it to be used by the community
and I guess my question is goes down to
who pays for creating it not maintaining
it necessarily I guess that's part to
the question then who creates it then
it's a question of if you get a critical
mass of development then is the onus on
the city to come in and create it so to
speak if it's right away or is it always
on the developer to improve that so far
they deliver that in development no it's
generally been on the developer I mean
you know at some point I don't I don't
think we're there but at some point the
city could decide we're going to build
the street this plaza this through block
passage because we believe that will
spur a certain kind of redevelopment in
this area and that I don't think that
there's a particular you know pioneer
project or you know priming of the pump
that the city has identified that they
want to undertake okay and wonderful a
good example is the townhomes that are
built on the south side of where Dick's
Sporting Goods is and they've got just
right across that parking lot that
pedestrian walk through which seems like
it's private there's no street that goes
through but it's open to the public
to walk through it's a required plaza
linear Plaza that was it was the peanut
gallery is commenting that's a private
plaza then I take it with an ailment
ability to allow the public purpose I
mean actually when they were asking for
local examples I sent that one to them
and asked if that you know represented
the kind of through block passage
because it is wider than we've typically
done those through block passages yeah I
think that the
it's at least 30 feet wide and then
there's another 10 feet or something two
buildings so you know you're looking at
something in this probably 50 foot range
let's move head 76
[Applause]
about 77
about 78
about 79 will be teaching Lucy just one
minor typo on there under appropriate
that on which book page of 79 okay under
appropriate the first paragraph says
maybe lease obtrusive to the sort of
stop thank you on the subject of typos
like to raise my tech rating I just
can't leave it behind this is a draft
document in work right but I have
probably several hundred markups on this
so far so I hope that at the end we have
a definite responsibility assigned for
the final draft for an editor to go
through all this because you know it's
not extremely clean at this point about
page eight
I guess the one question about the
setback with it at least or exactly yeah
and I I guess opinion wise here I don't
know that I agree with you can only have
one upper floor step back and that you
know it's four storeys one setback and
that's it we'll ask them to explain that
so their rationale and then I think we
can deliberate on whether that's a good
reason or not as opposed to multiple
step backs on upper floors yeah as I I
don't know that it would detract
necessarily from buildings and if a
developer wants to set it back a couple
times I'll see where the harm would be I
think they're always trying to avoid
setbacks from the progress of the
project Oh a page 81 or step backs versa
I have one comment here under
appropriate the second bullet point it
might be might spell it out in the
design codes but should we be
prescriptive on the pedestrian sight
lines for how I off the ground the
windows have to be
off the ground or relative to the grade
or both relative to their would be great
if it's pedestrian sight line is this a
AAA to in essence were locate window
openings above pedestrian sidelines yeah
okay window openings above veteran sight
lines Dubonnet want to be more specific
prescriptive their minimum elsewhere
they indicate it as five feet if it is a
pedestrian I can't find the key so maybe
that is our gold standard but they
should say it oh it's elsewhere well
they do have they do reference
pedestrian sight lines where they do
want transparency okay these five feet
in the benchmark and so maybe and that
is it so anything it means they do on
page 87 where they're talking about
ground floor transparency for retail
from floor retail I think your point is
good one I should just say here as well
as say so Lucy also on a one I mean I
think we have the same question about
one foot six inches and four feet are
those supermagic or is there a range
there that's that's allowable right I
mean that's pretty darn specific do that
right clarity
well that's clear I mean there's no
ambiguity about right one foot six
inches now I would wonder it along the
sight line I wonder maybe about not
being prescriptive and if they're saying
it's appropriate to locate them above
sight lines but not that you have to now
if a developer came in and said we want
to have our these windows to be a three
feet I think part of so that so I could
get so part of the I'll maybe pose the
opposite side of that so so they build
it that way and then all the tenants
move in and they don't like that level
of visibility into their space so then
you get things like furniture and you
know butcher paper and I stopped in the
windows so nobody can look in so
you know I agree I love the fact that
you would because we want is we want
that the ability to kind of have that
active side walk by being able to see
into some of those but you get so you
get some bad behavior too right so the
other way that you see it is when you
have specific you know when you have
these height limits and we're seeing
this in the you district a lot where the
ground floor they're they're pushing the
ground floor down so you get these sort
of troglodyte units and that's also
uncomfortable because then people are
really looking into everything that's
going so then they've always got shades
on their windows so I think it's it's
trying to as key said establish a level
at which it will be comfortable on both
sides you know for kind of the right
level of engagement on the same page
there are a number of pages in this
section with no inappropriate section is
that because it's just not appropriate
to include and there are no examples of
in appropriate images there either same
next page
speaking of the next page 82 comments
comments mr. chair under appropriation
appropriate under appropriate the last
paragraph it talks about accommodation
outside seating dining retail limited
landscape or raised planet I wonder
should we include railings in there I
said as a merchant you know every square
you know it's its money so if you put
planters in there planters takes up more
room versus just railing you only have a
couple of inches that each into your
there are space so I wonder should we
could the word railing and have them
have that option to go into there says
me and clothes how could the other thing
so railing should be acceptable yeah I I
think that there so I don't know that
I'm going to make sure I'm tracking what
you're what you're getting at
so there's the first sentence is the
sort of activities that we want and the
second sentence is how landscape could
be appropriately incorporated so while
the landscape may be part of defining
those areas and railings would also
define those areas I don't think that
they're trying to actually address the
tools that you're using to define cafes
eating I think that they're trying to
identify appropriate ways for landscape
to be incorporated but do we want
landscape do we not railing I I think
you could have railings or you could not
have railings I don't think they're
trying to say talk about railings with
the seating although you're you're
absolutely right most restaurants if
they serve
alcohol are going to have to have
railings yeah I think they're really the
second sentence is really just trying to
get at how what appropriate landscape
would look like it curls right it would
be a possibility this is just a main
glue does and say you can't have them
related to then on description be though
doesn't it say that landscaping is
required here do we want that or is that
just copy and paste from the previous
section section yeah yeah after look at
the description be it looks like it's
calling for required landscaping for
these setbacks yep down below when it
describes it as appropriate it qualifies
it as optional looks like yeah could we
say something like I you know items
that's used for for screening could I be
landscaping raised planters right
railings even a more more more options
see right now the way I read it has said
yeah you could use landscaping or raised
planters or landscape pots I think I
don't get the impression that railing is
okay there although you know you read
into you say well railing could be so I
guess my proposed language maybe you can
change the language to say that that
includes ie landscaping great great
planters or railings of some kind please
if we're going optional there did we
want to delete it up above in
description where it says maximum
10-foot landscape setback well I think
the like at you have a level of
precision that is amazing and so I think
what you're highlighting is that the way
that so part of the confusion for me was
I was looking at the lower B when you
were talking and then realized there was
an upper B so the upper be the way it's
written is it implies that the entire
setback is landscape and the lower one
implies that landscape is a part of that
setback but not don't entirely of it not
only that optional rate because the
image at the bottom of that page shows
that kind of setback there's no
landscaping really included in it so and
I hope you take out the word landscapes
in the upper Eddy
correct thank you good yes what proposed
green
moo-ved 883 yeah on page 83 i guess my
comment is maybe we should clarify the
word setback and step back
I guess we're there you're switching
back and forth from each step back as
like a marriage cake and step back sit
back it's on the ground level where you
sit back and and they're interchanging
that on page 83 of 93 but if you go to
page 82 of 93 under B it's a ten-foot
ground-floor setback I think that's
correct
setback is on setback from on the ground
level you said back when you're up on
the fifth floor you want to go back you
step back so so that's why on page 83 I
I I think they need to clarify it a
little bit got it for somebody right
graph should be set back and in the
second paragraph under description 20
foot step back I think for some of these
that are as prescriptive as that I mean
there's really no variability I mean in
theory assuming that 20 feet is magic I
mean so so we've used photos throughout
this document to give us visual images
of what what's what could work and what
might not work but for some of these
that are like exact and or if they are
you know they like for this example on
the previous page in the middle
they used actually a software diagram
and and dimensioned it right and so for
this one ray maybe the best thing is to
push these photos down and have a
similar diagram sketch that shows the
bottom level and then this step back for
the upper level so it's clear to match
up with whatever wording we end up with
I agree we should have some
or clarity on the wording but maybe we
could have a diagram to show that as
well because that I think would be a
clear representation yeah yeah yeah
that's I agree I agree
Justin on page 83 I think there's a
mixed up my mind right right the word I
think we can I'm gonna pick that I think
we keep the set back on the 20 feet
because that matches what we're using
for a setback you talk about Rene's okay
I'm going to call wordsmithing and we're
going to fix exactly but and that the
minimum is the big question yeah yeah
it's missing okay for
85 hanging there we're going to go
dancing like I had a question on
appropriate first bullet it's as
secondary entries are permitted along
through passage frontages is a through
passage frontage the same as through
block passage
excellent question I'm not I honestly
I'm not sure exactly it's when it is
through through passage I don't know
what frontage is sort of throwing me off
in there so I think that's a good point
of needing clarification thank you that
is how I read it but well it's just it's
just one of the things that was coming
up is consistent terminology age 86 so
lucy wet you so we talked about this one
earlier you read the second bullet point
under inappropriate and threw in a word
there that's not there and that's glass
so when I read that it says blue tinted
reflective or other opaque materials or
treatments and I look at the picture on
top which I assume is what they're
saying is an appropriate treatment and I
see brass doors right and so you know
for me that that's a that's kind of a
reflective material but if we're really
talking about the glass I think that
could use maybe another word or two to
be clear on that perspective because I
think you know there are some
architectural treatments at the ground
level that are shiny and reflective and
actually can be quite nice and that's
different than saying the windows are
transparent right so I think that one is
and and I think the glass had come up
that topic had come up in staff comments
so that's why I was just reading into it
but I think it's a good clarification
that's really just a windows
the glass when well window includes the
frame and that's what keeps pointed us
who said oh right gotcha
last night this glass just got and I
brief 87 the guideline paragraph I don't
understand that long run-on sentence I
don't actually understand what they're
trying to say there seems like maybe two
sentences to me but I can't tell it
makes sense to my planner brain but
we'll work on that given the way I would
read this is retail uses fronting is
that correct retails the subject uses of
the verb on public streets a through
block passage natural areas uses is a
noun uses is a noun retail is an
adjective
you're testing Isis or entire English so
I would can we recast that sentence so
that's clear so I'm retail applications
are retail in real estate uses as a rate
right first I've know the processes
except this would be typical I'd
understand yeah okay that is the word
that's the word in okay so we retail
activities but activity is more like
stuff to go on on the plaza
I mean you retail a uses a basis if you
wanted to use a different word than uses
I mean I'm gonna you're talking about
the actual space and that's the use
picture I don't know fish yeah I may be
I'm finding to use it's not in
industrial commercial okay residential
battle will use
that's obviously confusing to enough
people that would that we are address it
not here right if you have it right yeah
well with any other comments on 87 and
88 my one comment here is the they I
think they show the blue line on the
picture and the upper right to show that
this is what they're talking about forty
percent transparent at the ground floor
me is just not a great picture given you
don't really get to see the ground floor
that well and mostly what you see is
this the sort of barcode pattern of
these windows in the building which i
think is very attractive I was waiting
for you to say this background building
so I'll be honest you I told them you
guys do not like this picture I love
this building so I understand why they
have not dropped it because they
probably liked it too as designers but I
know this is not a good picture because
it doesn't convey what you guys are
wanting you know that it's not
representative of the things that you
like so that and then in this case I
don't think it's a very good
representation right of the ground floor
transported adult dark right yeah as all
dark and it's at an angle and it's
behind bright and and does the diagram
at the bottom do it sufficiently I mean
not in terms of being architectural II
what we want in terms of style but in
terms of sort of or composition but in
terms of meeting the requirement so
illustrating what forty percent
transparent all looks like that all
right right there you go yeah yeah so
even the photo on the next page which is
our weather protection page the top one
I mean so you've got big windows you can
actually see through those windows
that's like a better photo but I will do
we can find one yeah yeah we'll keep
pushing
same page note inappropriate section
there right wonder if they could move
the second bullet under appropriate down
there make it an appropriate reflective
coatings yeah aged 89 i I would like to
just build on our previous discussion on
this page can I go back to some of the
other guidelines that we've discussed up
till this point harmony compatibility
and then a third one I like to use a lot
is integration so I think there should
be some levity in the awning but it
needs to have harmony compatibility and
integration within the building and the
urban fabric and I would I would cite
the inappropriate picture again as that
has none of the above really just wants
to get your attention and so there I
think it's inappropriate so there's
still this subjective element to it but
if somebody is doing you know designing
a refined building you would think they
would a very special attention to that
on as well and that's where I think
integration comes into play and if we
use that word I think if it forces the
hand a little bit to get the desired
effect with without hemming them in as
much I guess I'm talking mostly to you
well but I think you're also that one of
the important points that you're
bringing up kevin is the point that even
if you did have a sombrero business I
would say that your awning should be are
appropriate to the architecture of the
building yes and instead I think you're
using the word integration I think
another concept is that is consistent
with the architectural character of the
building so it but I think that you're
also to raise point we're not asking
that it not at you know it could be the
jewelry on the building I'm going for
girl in the jury this time and but it
needs to it needs to
yeah I would use as an example if we're
using the the Arts and Crafts style we
have this very severe roof line coming
down to the the street level and that
that severe roof line could keep going
you know and you just just situate your
building such that that where that roof
line terminates it does span out for
five feet and serve as that awning is
one example and then it becomes part and
parcel of the architecture as opposed to
this thing that's attached to the
building by a third party and I think
that's when the awning is successful and
I think the top image illustrates that
it's it's very much a part of that that
storefront window facade that the
materiality is similar it registers off
the window lines and so that's what I
mean by and that's where I think it
becomes appropriate I really like that
idea that integrating or complementary
to the building style because that would
give us the tool when we look at an
awning able to say no we do like this or
we don't like that we can use that
language I think actually without having
to say it can only be horizontal metal
or canvas mm-mean that if there's a
material that carl's talked about that
synthetic that may be a good I hate to
say no we're never going to happen yeah
yeah
just a question on this page would this
be appropriate for this or not because
maybe a developer would never be faced
with it should we have any words
regarding weather protection for transit
stops even for light transit like
jitneys or whatever might be appropriate
in here like a good question here from a
building owners perspective so a transit
stop is a separate I'm not sure that
would be covered under this but from a
building owners perspective you don't
want somebody to say okay you have to
design the transit waiting area in front
of your building you know and require
that of somebody to do here it's
essentially a taking of your property
then right because not if it's in the
right-of-way but Richard is your is your
point that that transit stops should
shall some four have be weather
protected or are you suggesting that
that that provision is incorporated into
the adjacent building I guess my thought
is that if there are transit stops they
should be comfortable obviously
functional but I'm not sure whether the
developer would be required to provide
those or whether they would be public
and therefore not appropriate to this
guide probably would what might come
handy in that I were where the transit
transit authority would be in Corp in
any partnership with an owner developing
developer coming in putting in a
building with a transit stop in front of
it
or maybe even inside the building or
happy it's remarkably difficult I'll say
we went through this with Atlas they
negotiated upfront with Metro they
redesigned a location and then Metro
wasn't sure they wanted to use it so I
think and you know it's kind of like
some of the challenges that we face with
school bus stops you know it's one place
one year it's a different place another
year because we're of where the children
are the timing how many buses they're
running I it is it is a huge value of
ours so I think that what you're saying
is correct I'm not sure that I'm not
sure that putting it in here I mean this
is more about the building design and I
think that we want them I'm just not
quite sure how we can predict where
they're going to be enough to set that
up front in front
I've never may have been behind my
question I don't know that it's really
appropriate for this guide but obviously
it's something we're training encourage
in the core right absolutely well and
just one overall statement about this
guide and I want you guys to I think
hopefully embrace this perspective is
you know we're going to get this done
it's going to get adopted we're going to
start using it and we're going to
immediately start to realize the things
that we forgot to add alright and so
part of this is recognizing that this
thing needs to be semifluid and we need
to have the diligence keep updating it
as we go through permits have
realizations and go wait that didn't
turn out exactly the way we wanted or we
got into a debate about something we
shouldn't have because we were all clear
on how it should have been but the
developer had no idea right so part of
this is just just take that with a grain
of salt
Richard because we may be revisiting
that particular issue maybe sometime in
the near future won't our answer be
that's something the planning policy
missed that's a battle absolutely means
your answer we will be new we only
deliver light what's your comments from
the PC on TV to make it now have a page
90 the companies
I know inappropriate they're about page
91 is still in the same the 191 I
definitely question two questions about
the first appropriate accessible parts
within three blocks of all residents so
in terms of building design do you say
well you're building a building and
there's no park within three blocks so
you have to put the park in yours or it
seems hard thing to figure out how you
do that and then again back to my
question of you want to have parks every
three blocks it because then you have to
maintain them and stuff so I'm not so
sure that I like the idea of the green
necklace and connected parts and planned
out but I'm not sure that it can you be
this prescriptive even how it would work
well enough I don't know that means
they're public parks but I I think it is
I think understanding the intense of
spacing the size you know if you have a
small piece of property and you're the
first one to build and there's no Park
in that area does that mean it's on you
you know I and and it obviously ties
back to the parks plan and so we are
going to meet next week and begin to
talk to the parks department because
there's they're trying to start
anticipating some of the needs for
central we're trying to understand
how these pages fit in and begin to try
and set that framework so and just to
Mel's point I guess what I would say is
you know there's if you're if you if you
go with like a demand based approach
there's a big difference between you
know three blocks of three-story
buildings or three blocks of eight
storey buildings in terms of the number
of people that you're generating in a
particular
block that would need an open space to
go recreation right and so part of it
for me is that that piece is missing
there's there was an assumption may be
made on density that I don't know how to
deal with that right yet just because
again we don't have there's not a
pattern that's been established yet
right so I don't I find myself also and
I think Lucy and I were both looking to
the Parks Department to give us some
clarity on this particular topic since
it's their wheelhouse
I'm a page 92 oh of 93 that's some
comments on 93 it looks like a lot like
the other case it was like all right I'm
getting the sense that we're we've
completed that any other comments for
people that people would like to make
feel compelled to make well I think one
of the things to talk about not tonight
but strategically we have this meeting
next week and how do we want to use that
we've gone through sort of you know both
documents we've looked in depth I'm not
sure whether there are big topics that
are left for you the one topic that a
few of us have communicated about is
whether we want to look at some images
or you know talk about local projects
that we think are good examples or and I
don't know that we're saying that they
have to be in there but we'd like to put
these out to the architect crandall
rambilas
like them to consider these as for
inclusion or whether we're looking at a
little bigger pool I mean I I know
there's been a lot of and crandle
rambilas has frankly when we said that
to them they said we prefer to have
local projects I said you know because
it's nice for both the community for the
staff for the builders to be able to go
out and see a project and not just look
at it in a little you know 2 inch by 2
inch photo but see what it feels like in
three dimensions so there's I mean so so
clearly we could spend easily two hours
looking at pictures and and going
through you know that and I think
another suggestion that Connie made but
it was also I think she stole it from
one of our council members kidding
because it was made last night as well
was at some point and I don't know if it
makes if we're ready to do this is run
you guys through a dry run and take
either bail or in its wood or atlas or
one of the projects that you might have
done without this do a new one use this
and then talk through how we saw working
you know fill out the checklists go
through that and then see if if you and
we are generally on the same page if we
can't agree then that's going to be very
telling that maybe some of this needs
because I don't know how much of this is
going to get updated before the next
meeting right
none of it yeah and so the question is
is what's a good useful next step right
absolutely about some point that's a
great idea to do that yeah my bias is to
try the tool on see how it works that
week and I think we could spend more
than two hours looking at pictures and
we will all have a different idea what
it looks like but I think there's a
general consensus of we'd like to see
more it's across stuff or local stuff
that then not and preferably would like
to see more appropriate Issaquah
pictures and inappropriate but mostly
have to see the fact like that works out
but I think using the tool right now and
seeing if see it if we could come to
some kind of resolution or agreement on
how we can atlas would be a great one to
look at anyway pick a project that had
generated a little controversy and then
see how how this could have helped or
not that would be great use of our time
I think I agree I think that would be
great and we could work to do that next
week the one so that I would like to not
do Atlas because it's Henry buildings
and I would rather do either Vale or in
ass would because it's a smaller site in
one building the one thing to keep in
mind is none of them are going to fit
the Issaquah style unless we say it's
western false front or Grange and so
that part of the outcome right sure yes
but it's a little bit more challenging
because we've got that that that's like
a whole batch of it but for example is
good we went through a project and
review on one of the projects the other
day and the applicant had chose urban
Grange and so our consultant said you
know that's a challenge in this location
because we chose arts and crafts and and
he went through why they chose arts and
crafts to review it again and the
applicant chose why they chose urban
Grange and it was it was a fascinating
conversation to watch that unfold so
part of like if we choose in its wood or
Vale we're going to have to assume which
one of these architectural styles it
should fit in because the the consultant
has created some general parameters if
it's a particular height you know it can
only be a certain thing or you know for
urban Grange you know his comment was
the the applicants building was pretty
square it was like a cube and urban
Grange is much more kind of barn like an
agriculture and how do you deal with
that scale issue so if you really want
to do urban Grange how do you deal with
the fact that the building doesn't mimic
the urban Grange form you know just
because you want to use metal siding
doesn't make it urban grains right and
so it's a great conversation and I think
we learned a lot for how it would work
so similarly I think if we choose Vale
or in its wood and I would agree with
Lucy alice is too complicated to do in a
week but you know so we'll pick which
one of those architects architecture
themes seems to make sense for that and
then we'll judge it against that you
guys might say hey look you guys picked
arts and crafts we don't see that
building as arts and crafts at all we
would have chosen this style and then
that's a great conversation point right
I think that sounds fabulous we will not
be providing the checklist
well night I guess my preference might
be veiled just in terms of Venice would
had all the fill side stuff that sort of
impacted and we don't have that many
hillside sites yeah like it we might go
down the hillside rabbit hole and and
spend a lot of time there when that
might not be very informative for most
of the property but I will tell you that
both of those properties have a natural
area
so both it would be that that sort of
natural Eric because it has a stream on
in in proximity and they're saying
anything within 150 feet of that natural
area would have this application so it
would apply to available as well but you
wouldn't have the full hillside thing to
deal with
sure okay so let's we'll do bail don't
have it filled out and we'll talk our
way through it with good pistone so
other comments just the only other one
Honea brought up the idea of you
protection think view protections mostly
covered in SIDS if i recollect she would
say no yeah so the other thing i would
like to do is i started making a list
and I think Connie sort of did too and
that was something you had seen I think
some of you had seen I just like to have
a list of buildings so that if you if
were there certain buildings that we
like I don't I don't want it to be my
list of good buildings so what I'd like
to do is just start a list and email it
around and then we can look at it next
next meeting that way if the public
wants to add something to it it we're
not excluding the public conversation
but we're building a list does the list
have imagery because I think sometimes I
know it helps me you want to send you
photos I guess or is that too much or
just a list and then we we look at a map
maybe
I don't know I am I will see what we can
do yeah yeah so um but you know your
point is so I think at the very least
what we have to do is send an address or
something so that you can get to Google
Street View and look at it maybe that's
the best one because I think if I start
dropping foot first of all I don't have
photos of all of them if I'm doing
screen Clips then I get to a PDF then no
one else can modify the document when I
send it out to you but I don't expect
you but the name I may call something
may not be the name you call that
building and that's not going to be very
helpful if we can't all look at it
address address and google map and be
great I think that's a great idea
okay the onus is on you know that those
those townhomes just south of Dix I
think exporting goods would be a good
example got the plat so yeah drew block
casa just kept three level residential
and everything so romantic tenant right
the rate I'd like to thank all the
participation there are great comments
richer night apparently you have a lot
of editorial kind of things I don't know
if you've written those down you might
want to pass I have them I guess the
appropriate times when we're up to the
final draft or so on and then I can pass
money I need them before the final data
can give me a new it right you and I
were talking about how to do that okay
great yeah thanks Connie for your
participation as well so let's during
the meeting
thank you thank you
thank you
you